The Bogosity Forum

The Show => Future Episodes => Topic started by: Travis Retriever on October 25, 2009, 02:44:48 PM

Title: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on October 25, 2009, 02:44:48 PM

I think I might have just lost some respect for Jacob here.
So where do you stand on the vegan vs. meat eating debate?

I'd like to hear from Shane on this one; if he has time.

Also;
The video Jacob was replying to for context purposes:


I've seen some good videos for both sides, but I'll have to dig for them.

Post what you can find.

On a side note, for those of you who remember CapnOAwesome, he did a video making fun of dolphins, calling them stupid, and got more flak, death threats, racist comments, etc, from the vegans/PETA folk than from all the other religious people combined.
So I do agree with the guy Jacob is responding to that yes, Veganism (at least the way the PETA folk do it), IS a religion.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: MrBogosity on October 25, 2009, 03:57:29 PM
See if you can find Tim Slagle's routine on vegetarianism. I pretty much agree with all of that.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on November 02, 2009, 12:21:00 AM
"Natural" is such a vague and often misleading term.  As I always say, arsenic is natural but I doubt anyone's keen on taking it.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: MrBogosity on November 02, 2009, 07:04:13 AM
Anthrax is natural AND organic! It must be healthy!
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on November 03, 2009, 11:19:14 PM
What's more, what disgusts me the most is whenever the point is brought up, Jacob compares it to slavery, rape and murder.

Last time I checked, rights = responsibilities.
(even if the reasoning behind the next part is weak):
We are responsible for the animals we kill, the land they inhabit, etc, ergo, we have the right to do with them what we please, be it killing, torture, or what have you.
This is why it is still unacceptable for me to kill/hurt/mame another person's dog.
It's not my property.
It's his.

It's called HUMAN rights for a reason.
Other animals don't have them.
This is right, right?
I've had issues with the concept of rights for children and animals though..
There's a thread about this at Mises, I'll probably make a seperate one here.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: MrBogosity on November 04, 2009, 06:29:39 AM
Yes, and animals don't have responsibility. That's why when a dog attacks, the dog's owner is held responsible.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on November 07, 2009, 08:54:38 PM
Well, I couldn't find the skit you were talking about... unfortunately. :(

A pretty neat (though not necessarily accurate) video on the topic.
I liked it regardless though. :)
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: AHPMB on November 23, 2009, 01:11:53 PM
I see vegetarianism as a good thing.  Not that I subscribe to it, or even think most vegans are sane.  Rather it is an outgrowth of a prosperous, industrialized society where people are so well fed that they can make conscious choices about the morality of what they eat.  Vegetarians are a mark of sustained prosperity, health and nutrition simply because they can entertain that choice.  Vegans love to argue about how food and water shortages could be solved if we all switched from eating cows to eating tofu.  It's nice to be able to think about that when you can pick food up from your local super-market, but when you're living on barely arable land, and livestock is your only reliable source of protein, it's a bit harder to consider highfalutin arguments about animal rights.  Anyone who thinks vegetarianism is anything other than a lifestyle choice is off their rocker.  If you don't want to eat meat because you don't like picturing a furry animal dying for your benefit, great.  But as someone who worked on a ranch for 3 years, I have no problem looking at a lamb and picturing cuts of meat.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on February 04, 2010, 01:33:04 PM
And speaking of animal rights, I just HAD to show everyone this:
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on April 01, 2010, 01:02:46 AM
A possible counterargument I thought of is that "well, animals in the wild are responsible for themselves, shouldn't they have the right to remain unharmed?"

Also another problem was dividing the line between humans and other animals; that this, what qualifies enough as sentience (meaning thought/conscienceness; not just feeling pain) to be worthy of the same rights as humans?
Also, how would people who are either in a coma or severely mentally retarded fit into that? (I'm not trying to be bigoted and I apologize if this comes off as such; it is not intentional).
Would it be special pleading for them if animals of the same level of mental skill aren't allowed the same rights?

Just some thoughts, and things that have been on my mind as of late.

Granted, I don't buy Jacob Spinney's bit about our pets or cows, etc being able to survive in the wild.


I bring this point up because the point about animals and responsibility seems to apply to domesticated animals and not wild ones.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: LuminousMonkey on April 01, 2010, 03:04:37 AM
You could always ask Jacob why his dog still eats meat.

There is a proven benefit to reducing your meat intake, and that's the position I would take if arguing for vegan/vegetarianism.  Animal rights/pain/etc are an emotional issue.

But regardless, I don't lose any respect for Jacob over this.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on April 01, 2010, 12:27:53 PM
You could always ask Jacob why his dog still eats meat.

There is a proven benefit to reducing your meat intake, and that's the position I would take if arguing for vegan/vegetarianism.  Animal rights/pain/etc are an emotional issue.

But regardless, I don't lose any respect for Jacob over this.

I think he feeds his animals vegan feed, or something.
I knew he's not against the consumption of meat if it's for your survival.

True; spectrum or not, there is a simple way out.  Non-human animals when treated as property provide the most prosperity (laws prohibiting hunting in China with John Stossel anyone?).  The most prosperity is achieved via the non-aggression principle and self-ownership.
Ergo all non-human animals do NOT own themselves.
Hence, they do not have rights.

kind of a cop-out but, hey; phenomenological deductions and observations for the win.


Also, oddly enough he seems to be for the idea of private property for the thing with China and the hunting of tigers.
So he's not against it for survival, he doesn't mind the idea of treating animals as property as a free market solution, but he thinks it's immoral.
Sorry, but prick-ish-ness like that means a loss of respect in my eyes.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on April 07, 2010, 11:36:22 AM
Warning: Bogus video ahead:

Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on April 12, 2010, 01:56:27 PM

Regarding this video and the one in a post above it;
Is it true that we are evolved to be omnivores, or to be vegetarians?
I show an awesome video on the subject a while back, but I can't seem to find it. :(
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on April 12, 2010, 01:57:20 PM
Also, I heard that eating meat tends to give animals big brains or greater intelligence or something like that.
Is that true?
What is going on with that exactly?
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Gumba Masta on April 13, 2010, 01:30:45 AM
Well, good nutrition does affect a bodies growth. And last time I checked the brain was part of the body.
Of course one might argue what good nutrition consists of.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: valvatica on April 13, 2010, 08:17:37 PM
I'm not a vegetarian/vegan and I'd probably be a vegetarian if my body's tolerance towards healthier foods didn't suck. So for now I simply take the position that it's important to care about animals' suffering, while at the same time not explicitly defending eating meat. I admit the People Eating Tasty Animals shtick used to be funny to me, and now it's slightly above a dull chuckle when I see it (I'm not concerned with people having a sense of humor). Some of the stances I saw above such as animals not being sentient, not having rights *because* they're animals, etc. only beg the question: Where is the line drawn? I don't know how much corroboration the "meat consumption leads to bigger brains" has behind it but a lot of these justifications seem like cop-outs. Even if meat = eventual sentience is true, it shouldn't necessarily mean we have to remain in control of nature's shabby stencil like every other heterotrophic organism.
Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Travis Retriever on April 26, 2010, 12:56:06 PM
FINALLY!
I've been looking for this video for ages.

Title: Re: Veganism/Vegatarianism
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on April 27, 2010, 12:11:07 AM
Also, I heard that eating meat tends to give animals big brains or greater intelligence or something like that.
Is that true?
What is going on with that exactly?

Yes, it's the reason why we became as smart as we are.  Your brain craves lots of energy and meat was the best way to do it back in the day.  Notice how most herbivores aren't all that smart?