The Bogosity Forum

The Show => Future Episodes => Topic started by: 11mc22 on December 26, 2008, 03:09:16 AM

Title: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 26, 2008, 03:09:16 AM
I don't know much about the issue and it would be nice to see this topic in one of shanedk episodes.
but if Shane already made a video on it could someone tell me which one?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on December 26, 2008, 09:36:02 AM
I've thought about it. "Universal health care" is nothing more than the latest newspeak for Socialized Medicine. And there are so many myths floating around about the health care systems in Canada, UK, and elsewhere that fall apart when you actually examine the evidence.

Moreover, people keep trying to use the US health care system as an example of why the free market doesn't work, when in fact there's very little of the free market in play here. It's really a half-Socialist half-corporatist system.

I could probably make an episode tearing Sicko a new one. I've also seen video testamonials of people who had to come to America to get a life-saving procedure because of shortages and waiting lists (which always happen when you socialize; it's the Tragedy of the Commons).

If anyone knows of videos for or against, as always post them here.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 26, 2008, 02:41:49 PM
this is against universal healthcare



Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 26, 2008, 02:44:41 PM
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Real Captain Olimar on December 28, 2008, 08:17:53 AM
What did I miss?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Tom S. Fox on December 28, 2008, 11:53:55 AM
This is an internet forum, Real Captain Olimar, you can just go back and read it.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 28, 2008, 04:38:02 PM
What did I miss?

um well
there's only a few comments so its not that hard to look back and read some of the previous comments

well anyways post some videos regarding universal health care and private health care and your opinions on which is better.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 28, 2008, 06:27:48 PM
i think this one is for universal healthcare

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 28, 2008, 06:41:35 PM
this vid is for universal health care

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Tom S. Fox on December 30, 2008, 04:14:56 PM
We wait for Shane to make an episode about it.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 30, 2008, 06:01:37 PM
We wait for Shane to make an episode about it.

hes probably too busy making other episodes

oh well
time for me to post more videos
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on December 30, 2008, 06:05:45 PM
this one shows both sides

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Sinlingual on December 30, 2008, 09:44:31 PM
I live in the UK and it's universal only if it's an emergency it seems.

For example, I had a really bad cough flu like shit. So I ended up going to the doc's(which I hate). But I went in and waited about an hour, got in and it took like five mins and said the problem would go away on it's own but here's a prescription blah blah. So I went to the chemist's and showed them the prescription and had to pay about £7 for it.

People here will just go to A&E instead of going to doctor's because of this and it queues up people with real emergencies alot which is a big problem.

Basically, Universal Health Care is good if everybody didn't need treatment.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Real Captain Olimar on January 01, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
damn it
i need to hear people's opinions!!!!
where is everyone?????????
on earth
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 01, 2009, 05:53:49 PM
some other helpful websites

http://jayreding.com/archives/2008/01/30/why-universal-health-care-keeps-failing/

http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/aboutus/ArticleView.aspx?id=1573

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/universal_health_care.htm

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/464877
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on January 01, 2009, 08:01:37 PM
Here's some Reason.TV videos on the subject:

http://reason.tv/video/show/560.html
http://reason.tv/roughcut/show/133.html
http://reason.tv/video/show/333.html
http://reason.tv/video/show/407.html

And here's a website critical of Canada's system, especially the waiting limits:
http://www.nomorewaiting.info/site/index.cfm
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 05, 2009, 11:54:40 PM
so are you planning to make an episode against universal health care soon?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on January 06, 2009, 06:04:57 AM
I'm focusing on the DVD right now.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 09, 2009, 04:26:48 AM
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

another website
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Real Captain Olimar on January 10, 2009, 11:44:23 AM
I'm focusing on the DVD right now.

WOO HOO!
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 10, 2009, 03:37:53 PM

I don't live in America so i don't know exactly what this is
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on January 10, 2009, 03:43:55 PM
They are good. The idea is that you can take part of your paycheck and put it in one of these accounts pre-tax. You can remove money from the account as long as it's for medical use, again paying no taxes.

The problem is there are so many stupid restrictions on them they're almost worthless. Ron Paul (a medical doctor) has tried several times to introduce a bill that lifts these restrictions so that they can be an important solution to health care expenses, but it never goes anywhere.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 10, 2009, 04:03:04 PM
this is another video that talks about it

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Tom S. Fox on January 10, 2009, 05:34:15 PM
Don’t ask me! I know nothing about the topic!
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Andy120290 on January 10, 2009, 05:49:11 PM
but I'm pretty sure you've watched Sicko before
you must know something

If you want to call "knowing" something by watching a Michael Moore movie.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Tom S. Fox on January 10, 2009, 06:17:50 PM
that's why i posted the videos!!!!!

I’m sorry! I’m sorry! I might watch them later!

but I'm pretty sure you've watched Sicko before

As a matter of fact, I haven’t. I don’t think it was shown over here.

i don't know too much on this issue either but at least I'm participating by giving my opinions and my thoughts

Yes, but I don’t have opinions and thoughts about it, because I don’t know anything about it!

I want more people here taking a side ...

I’m impartial.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 17, 2009, 06:26:22 PM
the World Health Organization looks into why Americans have such low life expectancy compared to other industrialized countries

http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html

a lot of universal health care advocates wants you to think that these countries have higher life expectancy just because of universal health care, but they miss many factors that can contribute to lower life expectancy in America such as crime, HIV, drug use, lack of exercise, unhealthy eating habits, and so on.

and another website:
http://www.worldhealth.net/news/u_s_life_expectancy_reaches_record
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on January 17, 2009, 06:31:28 PM
I think we can improve most of that just by getting rid of the War on Drugs.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 17, 2009, 06:56:39 PM
here is another website i found

http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/09/natural-life-expectancy-in-united.html

Quote
Reuters goes on to say that the death rates from the top three natural causes of death in the United States, heart disease, cancer and stroke, all decreased in 2005 compared to the previous year, helping to contribute to the increase in U.S. life expectancy. What the Reuters article doesn't tell us is something we find more interesting. Here, what they don't tell us is that the CDC's life expectancy figures also incorporate non-natural causes of death, such as those resulting from fatal injuries, which include motor vehicle accidents, falls, accidental poisonings, homicides, et cetera.

Quote
This low ranking in life expectancy is often pointed to as being the result of the deficiencies of the health care system in the U.S. The problem with this thinking however is that it does not account for the fact that the U.S. has a disproportionate number of individuals who die as the result of fatal injuries compared to the other wealthy nations of the world. This does not reflect upon the quality of health care in the U.S., in that these events almost universally occur independently of the condition of health of the individuals who die as a result of these factors.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 17, 2009, 08:41:41 PM
leading causes of death in America

source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/lcod.htm
and http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/LCWK9_2005.pdf

1. heart disease
2. cancer
3. stroke
4. Chronic lower respiratory diseases
5. Accidents (unintentional injuries)
6. Diabetes
7. Alzheimer's disease
8. Influenza/Pneumonia
9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis
10. Septicemia
11. Intentional self-harm (suicide)
12. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
13. Essential (primary) hypertension and hypertensive renaldisease
14. Parkinson's disease
15. Assault (homicide)

obesity linked to or increases the risk of numbers 1,2,3,6,13 and obesity affects about 33% of American adults.

source: http://www.downtoearth.org/articles/obesity_america.htm

http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/obesity-health-risks#

smoking is linked to or increases the risk of numbers 1,2,3,4,6,8 and probably more. lung cancer is the leading causes of death in the cancer category and most of it is from smoking. smoking is the leading cause of preventable diseases and deaths. Alcohol consumption is also linked to some of those numbers.

solution:
1.for obesity. Get off the couch and exercise and eat some vegetables.
2.plan to stop smoking and stop drinking so much. drinking little is proven to be healthy but drinking so much and passing out will get you some brain damage, liver damage and so on.
3.for accidents. some people should stop being such a Dumbass on the road
4. As for assault and homicide, get rid of The War on Drugs and strict gun control because both have been proven failures. But is the government listening?

you guys can list more solutions

so basically America's life expectancy can go up dramatically if people lived a healthier lifestyle. Europe and Canada has a healthier lifestyle, less crime, and less accidents and they live longer because of it.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: ffejpsycho on January 17, 2009, 09:21:15 PM
I live in Canada (Vancouver, BC) and from my experiences I am extremely thankful for our health care system. There have been a few occasions if we had not had it, I either would have died, or been put seriously in debt. From my experience if you need the surgery, or or in condition you need to see someone, You get it right away. It is only for trivial shit that people should not be going to the hospital for in the first place that get the wait times. If you need something, the doctor can mark you priority, and you get it rather quickly, if it is something that can wait, there is a wait. To me it makes sense. I think even someone who doesn't earn a dime should get any medical attention they require. There are now private practices that someone can pay to get stuff done out of their own pocket if they so desire as well (I have no problem with these). A while ago I had an asthma attack and my lung collapsed, I was rushed to hospital. I was not working at the time, and had not payed my medical in a few months, I was rushed right in and spent 4 days in ER Acute care, received free medication. When I was able to breathe on my my own again, I thanked the people who helped save my life and went home. It did not cost me a dime, and I did not have to fill out forms, or wait any time before hand. I later went back to work, and only had to repay the medical (MSP-Medical Services Plan) I was behind on - Roughly 160 bucks. My only complaint in Canada is that Medication is still quite expensive, although if you are under a certain gross earnings you can get it for free as well. Like I said this is my own opinion, based from personal experience. This is not supposed to be taken as the way things always are(I am sure there are testimonies that say the exact opposite as well). I just thought I would give a word as pro-socialized medicine as no one else here seemed to be pro. I am just extremely grateful for it. Thanks for listening hope, this was not TL;DR
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Andy120290 on January 17, 2009, 09:25:59 PM
Well, life expectancy is a little longer in Europe and Canada, but if what I read is correct, it is not that significantly longer. It is true that a healthier lifestyle is the easiest thing that can be done to increase one's life expectancy.

One thing I am getting tired of hearing is this "obesity problem." I mean those people made a conscious choice to eat what they want and exercise as much as they want. It is not my problem. Let them do what they want as long as they are the only ones that suffer the consequences.

On ffejpsycho's post: It is my opinion that, despite the obvious problems with socialized medicine, there are numerous people who swear by Canada's healthcare system, but they are probably the lucky ones. And there is no such thing a free healthcare either. It is my understanding that Canada's universal healthcare system is one of the primary reasons that taxes are higher than in the United States.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 17, 2009, 09:47:22 PM
One thing I am getting tired of hearing is this "obesity problem." I mean those people made a conscious choice to eat what they want and exercise as much as they want. It is not my problem. Let them do what they want as long as they are the only ones that suffer the consequences.

my point was that people in Europe and Canada have a longer life expectancy than the US and if the US wants to increase its life expectancy then Americans need to improve their lifestyle.
health care isn't why people in those countries live longer.

i agree that people who choose to be obese can make their own choices and i should not interfere, but again the whole point was to show you that health care really isn't all that big when it comes to life expectancy and America is able to increase Life expectancy if they choose to. and people who keep complaining like Michael Moore that Canadians live longer then what he needs to do is get a treadmill and get healthier, not get some sort of single-payer government system.

and thats my point. I'm not against people who eat too much Mcdonalds or anything like that.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: ffejpsycho on January 17, 2009, 10:20:44 PM
And there is no such thing a free healthcare either. It is my understanding that Canada's universal healthcare system is one of the primary reasons that taxes are higher than in the United States.

yes, I agree. It is not free Health care, we pay for it. I just personally am ok with paying higher taxes, So that everyone has access to the medicine they need. Even those who can't afford to pay the taxes for it. It helped me in my time of need. I am more than happy to help others in theirs.

I now have a job that pays my Medical, but it would be quite ignorant of me to say "Well, I don't need this health care system. Why should I have to pay taxes for it?" I may need it again in the future, and there are people who do need it now. I don't believe it is a perfect system. It has obvious flaws, as you said. I don't swear by it, I just believe it to be better than the current North American alternatives.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Andy120290 on January 18, 2009, 12:34:37 AM
The same guy also made a video about the history of healthcare in the United States. But by judging by its 3.5 star rating and numerous negative comments, I am guessing that its accuracy leaves a lot to be desired.


Because I am not an expert on this subject, I would take anything in this guy's videos with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on January 18, 2009, 03:05:14 AM
The same guy also made a video about the history of healthcare in the United States. But by judging by its 3.5 star rating and numerous negative comments, I am guessing that its accuracy leaves a lot to be desired.

No, that just means that it upsets the political views of a lot of people. It's just like religion.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: ffejpsycho on January 18, 2009, 11:41:33 AM
ffejpsycho,

there is another solution to America's health care problem.

get rid of the private insurance companies and let the consumer's make decisions for his/her own money.


I agree this sounds like a good solution, Will it ever be done? With the power HMO companies hold I doubt it. Evidence and reason don't hold a lot of weight, in regards to policy and institutional change. Not when there is so much money to be had.

I just meant canadian system was better than any current system in north america, I realize that there are better possible solutions out there. I only wish that institutions were actually changed according to evidence in our societies, but that definitely is not the case. Canada does not pay a whole lot of attention to evidence either. :(
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Andy120290 on January 18, 2009, 02:40:21 PM
No, that just means that it upsets the political views of a lot of people. It's just like religion.

How accurate would you say his videos are then?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on January 18, 2009, 04:35:12 PM
I agree this sounds like a good solution, Will it ever be done? With the power HMO companies hold I doubt it.

Please note that HMOs exist because of the HMO Act. It's corporatism. Before then, they'd tried forming HMOs but they didn't last because no one wanted them. They passed the HMO act calling it a solution to the health care crisis, but really all they were doing is forcing something that the people had already determined they didn't want.

How accurate would you say his videos are then?

Couldn't say; I haven't had a chance to watch them yet. I'm just commenting about how little ratings mean.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: ffejpsycho on January 18, 2009, 04:46:49 PM
Please note that HMOs exist because of the HMO Act. It's corporatism. Before then, they'd tried forming HMOs but they didn't last because no one wanted them. They passed the HMO act calling it a solution to the health care crisis, but really all they were doing is forcing something that the people had already determined they didn't want.

Thanks for the info,

it just proves when someone say "There ought to be a law" there probably Oughtn't
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 19, 2009, 07:39:34 PM
heres a video about Obama's health care plan

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on March 10, 2009, 03:08:53 AM
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on June 24, 2009, 11:44:50 PM
http://freedomchannel.blogspot.com/2007/06/cure-how-capitalism-can-save-american_440.html
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on July 25, 2009, 01:14:52 AM
OUCH

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on July 25, 2009, 08:41:50 AM
For Socialized Medicine (from that DonJack1776 guy):
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on July 25, 2009, 10:00:53 AM
Kucinich starts off with the completely debunked "50 million uninsured," and then expects us to believe him when he goes spouting off unsourced statistics without letting the other guy answer the question?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on July 25, 2009, 02:28:30 PM
For Socialized Medicine (from that DonJack1776 guy):

LOL

there was like nothing in that whole video that had anything to do with health care
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on July 25, 2009, 11:15:00 PM
There wasn't? I guess that's what happens when you don't watch it first.
My bad.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on July 25, 2009, 11:36:42 PM
There wasn't? I guess that's what happens when you don't watch it first.
My bad.

It was just basically about how liberals trust the government while conservatives don't
and that governments do work in things like health care

This video wasn't really an argument but just a statement on what donjack believes
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on July 26, 2009, 12:41:58 PM
It's just the political false dichotomy again.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on August 01, 2009, 02:59:02 AM
http://www.reason.com/news/show/135127.html
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on August 02, 2009, 02:11:38 AM
"Public Option"

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on August 02, 2009, 02:28:46 AM

I didn't post this vid because of its content
as you can see there is a guy called the theRadicalliberal in the comment section spouting Michael Moore cliches like life expectancy, infant mortality and the really dumb WHO ranking.
The WHO ranking is based on life expectancy, "fair" financing, and etc etc that has actually nothing to do with health care

http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_world_health_ranks.html

In fact the only thing that does involve health care is RESPONSIVENESS which US ranked number 1 for
http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_systems.html

Should I even bother responding to him?
I'm really tempted but I don't want to waste my time

not only that, his channel looks like a sock puppet.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on August 02, 2009, 02:41:14 AM
Kucinich starts off with the completely debunked "50 million uninsured," and then expects us to believe him when he goes spouting off unsourced statistics without letting the other guy answer the question?

(http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon072409.gif)
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on September 04, 2009, 02:35:54 AM
Something interesting you might want to cover in this episode:
Many Socialized Medicine proponents will go on and on about their personal anecdotes about how cheap and fast their own healthcare was, despite wait times of about 4 months for Canada and 1 year for France (to name a few examples of wait times of systems with Socialized Medicine).
Yet what they seem to forget is that those figures are AVERAGES; meaning that it's perfectly expected that there are going to be people who get in sooner.
But what about the people on the other side of the bell curve of wait times; the ones who have to wait longer, maybe even much longer than the average to get medical care?
What about THEIR stories/anecdotes/testimony?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on September 04, 2009, 09:16:39 PM
And by those people, I mean people who die; not just go to the USA or India for treatment...
I mean, about half as much per capita spent, but even more socialized (higher costs b/c of tragedy of the commons)?
You've gotta be kidding me.
They must have shortages like no other in these places.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on September 12, 2009, 08:29:08 PM
Would this qualify as a good video?

He read it directly from this:  http://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html

Shane, what do you think of this?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 12, 2009, 09:08:46 PM
Yes, and there are only a couple dozen Shriner hospitals left...many are having to cut back on services, now offering only outpatient procedures. The director has said that if this continues, there won't be any left in ten years.

This is the legacy of government health care "reforms."
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on September 12, 2009, 10:11:43 PM
I should have worded the question better.
"As a source/video for this thread, do you think this was appropriate; if so, how good was it?" would have been better.
Though it does sound like you liked it. :)

As the saying goes: "The worst words in the English Language, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 12, 2009, 11:26:29 PM
Oh, yes, it was good.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 13, 2009, 08:37:12 AM
Two questions I hope someone can help me out on.

Got someone who refuses to watch videos debunking universal healthcare.  Says unless it's a research paper, it doesn't count basically.  All the evidence he gave me to support his stance was Ontario's website where it showed the average hospital stay (I brought up the fact that's only the tip of the iceburg and has nothing to do with waiting lists for surgery, but what would I know?  I only LIVE in Canada!  ><).

Yes I know, he's shifting burden of proof here but what can you do?  Oh yeah, also heaving on the nice old salesman's trick of "So what if it's not perfect, we have to do SOMETHING."  Most laughable of all was when he tried to tell me "the stories about how people in Canada go to the US for treatment because our system is going to let them die are just fabrications made by the scare mongering republicans" or whatever.  I showed a news vid of a woman who was such a person and he pulls the "anecdote, doesn't count" excuse suddenly.  o.O

I don't know if anyone can help on this other one but I'll try anyway.  I have a friend in Tenessee who's one of the tragic cases that fell through the proverbial cracks.  Him and his girlfriend are self employed making artwork for a living.  Due to his own medical problems, he is unable to work a "normal" job and naturally the insurance companies won't touch him.  I've comissioned them for their art a few times to help out (and cause I like the drawings) but I've always wished I could give them the peace of mind they want on the matter.  What should people caught in this kind of situation do?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 13, 2009, 09:38:42 AM
Got a link for that news vid?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 13, 2009, 06:44:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=refrYKq9tZQ

5:30 though you probably saw it already.  And as the rest of the vid shows, she's not alone.

It makes me glad I hit the genetic jackpot as far as health goes.  Last time I saw the doctor was a year ago when I had the flu but I had to wait 2 weeks to see him and by then the flu was gone, making the whole thing pointless.  ><

The comment really made me angry.  He goes on saying that Canadians going to the US for treatment because they can't wait is a myth, I demonstrate that it is in fact not and he pulls that "I dont' want anecdotes" nonsense.  Just man up and admit that was a stupid statement to make...
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 13, 2009, 06:57:34 PM
Oh, yeah, that's Stossel. I've seen that.

It'd be nice to have more, though.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 13, 2009, 07:12:23 PM
I mostly read about it in my local newspapers.  It's heart breaking to see people let down by a system they believed in so strongly.  As Stossel once said himself: Canadians love their system when they're well.  When they get sick, then they hate it.

Sadly, not many recent ones because it's not the current topic du jour.  I'll try to think of more...

Here's one I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MODV9pdViIA  I'm watching it now.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 13, 2009, 07:42:44 PM
Newspaper references are good, too.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 13, 2009, 07:59:21 PM
Bleah, not coming up with much.  My own local paper is mostly focusing on our newly elected premier and the bold faced lies he told to get there.  And here I thought they were reporting NEWS.  ^^;
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 13, 2009, 09:05:15 PM
Old newspaper references are fine.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 13, 2009, 10:28:58 PM
I'll keep trying but their site's search engine doesn't seem to do anything.  Gotta love big fancy websites with awful user friendliness.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 17, 2009, 08:27:15 AM
A response from a German fellow during a healthcare debate

Quote
Okay, explain that to somebody that has, as a well-educated, rational thinking European, allready a hard time to understand they strange twisted ways the brains of the conservative, ignorant, white-trash part of the american populus work, but WHY again do they think that universal health care would not work in the US? Here, let me show you something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Germany
Germanys universal health care system is the oldest in Europe, it is working for almost 130 years now, it DOES have a few problems at the moment, but nobody would question the system because it is prooved and all in all stable. Most other european UHC are basing on the german system, so it is no problem to adapt it to other societies, it would also work in the US. So let me ask again, what the fuck is the problem of these people?

I already said his claim to being well-educated and rational was called into question by his interesting choice of words in describing the opposition.  No response

It was brought up the Germany is smaller and a whole different place making it an unfair comparison.  Wasn't deterred

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I disagree. Something that works for 16 states will also work for 50. And the american populus isn´t THAT much larger than the german one. The USA has a population of about 300 Million people, Germany about 80 Million people, thats just about 3-4 times larger (While we´re at it, all of the EU states have UHCs, which are standartised and regulated by the EU´s central commission in Bruxelles, so in fact you could say the EU has more or less a common UHC (for example if I get sick in Italy or Britain, my German health insurance will pay the doctor or the hospital there without any problem), and the EU has a populus of 450 Million people, 1.5 times the populus of the US, not to mention that the EU is probably the most buerocratic entity oin the history of the planet, yet it still works here).
As I said the model of this system has been adapted to a number of countries, the most current example is the Peoples Republic of China which is currently installing a UHC system basing on the german system, and thats a country with a populus of 1.3 Billion ( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/wo....19590543.html ). You see, that this devaluates your population
argument.

He has yet to respond directly to me.  I don't know if he's avoiding me or what but there you go.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 17, 2009, 08:49:12 AM
Germany's system is half-private. And unlike the US, that does NOT mean half-corporatized. And it works so much better than countries with fully-socialized systems. Ask him to explain THAT!
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on September 17, 2009, 07:06:14 PM
Someone else came back with WHO's rankings which show fully socialized countries ranking higher than Germany.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

The lack of criteria for this list does kind of make me suspicious and someone else did point out these are the same people who said swine flu was going to be pandemic.  Who makes up WHO, what's the criteria for this list and how do they acquire the data?
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 17, 2009, 07:56:21 PM
Always a good question. The WHO has never been that economically-savvy.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on September 17, 2009, 08:27:03 PM
Someone else came back with WHO's rankings which show fully socialized countries ranking higher than Germany.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

The lack of criteria for this list does kind of make me suspicious and someone else did point out these are the same people who said swine flu was going to be pandemic.  Who makes up WHO, what's the criteria for this list and how do they acquire the data?

Oh, I had posted a comment earlier with a website that had the criteria



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I didn't post this vid because of its content
as you can see there is a guy called the theRadicalliberal in the comment section spouting Michael Moore cliches like life expectancy, infant mortality and the really dumb WHO ranking.
The WHO ranking is based on life expectancy, "fair" financing, and etc etc that has actually nothing to do with health care

http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_world_health_ranks.html

In fact the only thing that does involve health care is RESPONSIVENESS which US ranked number 1 for
http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_systems.html

Should I even bother responding to him?
I'm really tempted but I don't want to waste my time

not only that, his channel looks like a sock puppet.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: MrBogosity on September 17, 2009, 09:49:12 PM
Our crime rate, including murder, is higher, mostly due to the War on Drugs. We also have more traffic accidents. These things and more pull down our average life expectancy and have nothing to do with health care.

Do they also use infant mortality? That's another bogus criteria. We count infants born with fatal conditions; other countries don't. Additionally, our health care system, being BETTER (in every way other than economic), brings more babies to term that would have died in the womb. Obviously, these babies are going to have a better chance of dying than normal, healthy babies. I tried to explain this to a socialist woo once, and he tried turning it into an issue of abortion!
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on October 02, 2009, 12:28:23 PM
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on October 23, 2009, 04:57:22 PM
Our crime rate, including murder, is higher, mostly due to the War on Drugs. We also have more traffic accidents. These things and more pull down our average life expectancy and have nothing to do with health care.

Do they also use infant mortality? That's another bogus criteria. We count infants born with fatal conditions; other countries don't. Additionally, our health care system, being BETTER (in every way other than economic), brings more babies to term that would have died in the womb. Obviously, these babies are going to have a better chance of dying than normal, healthy babies. I tried to explain this to a socialist woo once, and he tried turning it into an issue of abortion!

I'm not to sure if infant mortality was used. I revised my comment and took it out because I don't think the WHO specifically used infant mortality as a criteria.
But they did use overall health in population and other crap that had more to do with lifestyle than health care.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on November 07, 2009, 03:43:13 AM
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on November 12, 2009, 09:19:05 PM
Another bogus argument from both Moore and others about Socialized Medicine is that "the USA needs to get on board with the rest of the developed world."
Which is a blatant bandwagon fallacy (or at least an appeal to popularity).
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Travis Retriever on November 12, 2009, 09:33:44 PM
Against.  Might surprise you.
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on November 12, 2009, 11:14:55 PM
Googling found me this

http://medicaldesign.com/engineering-prototyping/time_flatten_fda/
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on November 14, 2009, 07:42:21 PM
I doubt anyone here will have the time to listen to the whole thing.

Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on November 14, 2009, 07:43:38 PM
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on November 14, 2009, 08:15:53 PM
I love that bit near the end about how you're taxed on tax in Canada.  tis true.  They hit you for earning money, they hit you for spending it and then they hit you for being hit.  Blood sucking parasites, the whole lot of them!
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on November 23, 2009, 11:16:59 PM
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on January 05, 2010, 09:36:49 PM
http://www.therightscoop.com/watch-%E2%80%98stossel%E2%80%99-from-fox-business-%E2%80%93-december-17-2009/
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: 11mc22 on March 15, 2010, 11:15:27 PM
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/From-Mutual-Aid-to-Welfare-State
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Gumba Masta on March 17, 2010, 11:47:21 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2PyeXRwhCE
Title: Re: universal health care vs private health care
Post by: Lord T Hawkeye on March 20, 2010, 01:51:53 AM
http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003170001

This was presented as evidence that the healthcare bill isn't a financial sinkhole.  People told me it was a great site for balanced fact checking but I'm finding myself somewhat unconvinced of this as I pored through it.