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General Bogosity => General Discussion => Topic started by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 28, 2013, 05:44:27 PM

Title: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 28, 2013, 05:44:27 PM
Title: Re: Re: Fail Quotes
Post by: Skm1091 on March 28, 2013, 06:13:59 PM

What the hell are they talking about? The Jian CAN cut and slash like any other sword. There were also two handed variants with broader blades like their European counterparts. And the ancient Chinese were also pretty good metallurgist so these were not some poorly made iron bars either.


Title: Re: Re: Fail Quotes
Post by: Ibrahim90 on March 28, 2013, 09:34:13 PM
What the hell are they talking about? The Jian CAN cut and slash like any other sword. There were also two handed variants with broader blades like their European counterparts. And the ancient Chinese were also pretty good metallurgist so these were not some poorly made iron bars either.


that part in bold is an understatement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Goujian). the sword in the link blew my brains out the first time I saw it. And it's hardly an isolated example.

and that was in Bronze: the steel examples blow my mind even more.
Title: Re: Re: Fail Quotes
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 28, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
that part in bold is an understatement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Goujian). the sword in the link blew my brains out the first time I saw it. And it's hardly an isolated example.

and that was in Bronze: the steel examples blow my mind even more.

Worst part is cutting something doesn't even need a sharp edge.
Title: Re: Re: Fail Quotes
Post by: Ibrahim90 on March 28, 2013, 10:50:17 PM
Worst part is cutting something doesn't even need a sharp edge.

ah, this one reminds me:


yeah, even the Europeans could do it (though granted, they had to get the ingots from Persia and Afghanistan form the looks of it: still, they kept it clean, and used the properties to good effect).

and I have posted something in favorite quotes.
Title: Re: Re: Fail Quotes
Post by: Skm1091 on March 28, 2013, 10:57:45 PM
Worst part is cutting something doesn't even need a sharp edge.

The sword can also be used to bludgeon an opponent, am I correct? European weapons and fighting techniques are really underestimated aren't they? Chinese weapons (if you take out the wushu stuff)  are also underestimated in some ways.  BTW maybe we should put this in another forum. Remember last time? *chuckle*

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Travis Retriever on March 29, 2013, 11:02:34 AM
Shane, you can maybe move the talk of swords to another topic?

Back to ze fail quotes, guys! :P
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: MrBogosity on March 29, 2013, 11:25:07 AM
Shane, you can maybe move the talk of swords to another topic?

I did earlier, and you posted in the new topic.  :P
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: VectorM on March 29, 2013, 01:16:27 PM

Weeeeelp
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on March 29, 2013, 05:43:35 PM
I think guys will really like this

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on March 30, 2013, 02:28:32 AM
Weeeeelp

you lost me there.

@ skm1091: thanks!
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on March 30, 2013, 06:28:45 PM
you lost me there.

@ skm1091: thanks!

your welcome

Going back to Chinese, what do you guys think of this?


You hear a lot about japan and Western Europe but you rarely see stuff on Ancient China.


Quote
that part in bold is an understatement. the sword in the link blew my brains out the first time I saw it. And it's hardly an isolated example.

and that was in Bronze: the steel examples blow my mind even more.

I believe you are talking about the sword of Gou Jian, the ruler of the state of Yue during the warring states period(475-221 B.C)
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Travis Retriever on March 30, 2013, 07:12:35 PM
you lost me there.

@ skm1091: thanks!

Often a way of saying "Well" but more more exaggerated or something. :P
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 30, 2013, 07:29:25 PM
You hear a lot about japan and Western Europe but you rarely see stuff on Ancient China.

And usually what you hear about ancient china is crap by biased martial artist, who are drunk on the arts own "greatness"
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on March 30, 2013, 10:24:10 PM
And usually what you hear about ancient china is crap by biased martial artist, who are drunk on the arts own "greatness"

Lol. Finding good stuff is hard isn't?

Anywhere near as embellished as the Japanese? I don't think so.

They don't seem talk about Ancient Chinese (Zhao, Warring States Qin, Han etc).  They seem to talk more about Shaolin Kung Fu and Wushu these don't come until later. Some argue that Shaolin is where Chinese fighting arts originated, which is absolute bullshit because there are accounts that go back even further.

They don't really talk much about weapons either.

There is embellishment in every culture that has experienced war I suppose. Remember the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae? Herodotus was the one who wrote about this and this guy is said to be wildly inaccurate with his numbers. It is hard to believe that any nation at that time could even field and maintain an army that huge. 

BTW what you think of the videos?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on March 30, 2013, 10:57:37 PM
your welcome

Going back to Chinese, what do you guys think of this?


You hear a lot about japan and Western Europe but you rarely see stuff on Ancient China.


I believe you are talking about the sword of Gou Jian, the ruler of the state of Yue during the warring states period(475-221 B.C)

seen both--very good material, and it shows how ingenious the Chinese can get--not just with the civilian material. what amazes me is that the Chinese have come up with an equally effective, yet different armor style, than what Europeans and middle  easterners used. Specifically, the latter two worked with metal from the get-go, and evolved mail armor as the predominant form of protection throughout much of the last 2,000 years. the Chinese worked with leather and wood initially, only later switching to metal, and they went with lamellar armor for the last 2,000 years--much more consistently than the latter two did with mail.

and yes, it was about the sword of Gou Jian.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on March 30, 2013, 11:55:38 PM
Quote
seen both--very good material, and it shows how ingenious the Chinese can get--not just with the civilian material. what amazes me is that the Chinese have come up with an equally effective, yet different armor style, than what Europeans and middle  easterners used. Specifically, the latter two worked with metal from the get-go, and evolved mail armor as the predominant form of protection throughout much of the last 2,000 years. the Chinese worked with leather and wood initially, only later switching to metal, and they went with lamellar armor for the last 2,000 years--much more consistently than the latter two did with mail.


Lamellar is actually pretty strong especially ones made from steel. China also had paper armor, which was also very strong. (See video bellow)


What always puzzled me is that with such advance metallurgy they never made plate armor.

The videos I posted earlier. The playlist about the armor On the first video I think they missed a few things. The armors that the terracotta soldiers wore from about 5:30 to the end on the first video. I  read that some of them were made from bronze and iron. (See article bellow)

http://www.history-of-armor.com/ChineseArmor.html
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 31, 2013, 01:01:39 AM
Lol. Finding good stuff is hard isn't?

Anywhere near as embellished as the Japanese? I don't think so.

They don't seem talk about Ancient Chinese (Zhao, Warring States Qin, Han etc).  They seem to talk more about Shaolin Kung Fu and Wushu these don't come until later. Some argue that Shaolin is where Chinese fighting arts originated, which is absolute bullshit because there are accounts that go back even further.

They don't really talk much about weapons either.

There is embellishment in every culture that has experienced war I suppose. Remember the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae? Herodotus was the one who wrote about this and this guy is said to be wildly inaccurate with his numbers. It is hard to believe that any nation at that time could even field and maintain an army that huge. 

BTW what you think of the videos?

They're good. I wish that there were something about the martial techniques.
Then, again. I always have a hard time finding stuff about how the Japanese really fought.
Usually, all I find is japanphilia.
Realistic stuff about Europe though I can easily find for some reason.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on March 31, 2013, 03:16:07 AM
Quote
They're good. I wish that there were something about the martial techniques.
Then, again. I always have a hard time finding stuff about how the Japanese really fought.
Usually, all I find is japanphilia.
Realistic stuff about Europe though I can easily find for some reason.

For martial techniques, I think it is a safe bet to say that they would learn simple/the most effective moves such as basic kicks, punches grapples, chokes etc. Because if you try a fancy flashy kick in air like a Shaolin monk in a real battle. Most likely you would be chopped to pieces.  Heh heh

BTW do you think the Chinese could have made good plate armor? I always wondered since these guys were really good metallurgists, why did they never make any.

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 31, 2013, 05:48:52 AM
For martial techniques, I think it is a safe bet to say that they would learn simple/the most effective moves such as basic kicks, punches grapples, chokes etc. Because if you try a fancy flashy kick in air like a Shaolin monk in a real battle. Most likely you would be chopped to pieces.  Heh heh

BTW do you think the Chinese could have made good plate armor? I always wondered since these guys were really good metallurgists, why did they never make any.

I meant in weapon usage, like the katana was kinda used in lateral cuts. while the European longsword was used in a kind of wagon wheel movement.
As with the Plate armor, Maybe? Either the Chinese never thought of it, the climate wasn't good for it, they never encountered the stuff,
The Europeans encountered a form from the Romans, who encountered it from the Greeks or they government so regulated the army that nobody could experiment with it. The Chinese were a very regular army while the European armies, most soldiers brought their own stuff.

The whole thing about plate not being good for cavalry is out because at least a good portion of the army used crossbows.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on March 31, 2013, 08:21:16 PM
I meant in weapon usage, like the katana was kinda used in lateral cuts. while the European longsword was used in a kind of wagon wheel movement.

I am stuck on that one. I can only assume that it would be a more simplified version of Chinese sword play today. Look at the video bellow and try to imagine this without all the flashy and fancy stuff and more oriented toward practical things like parrying blows, Striking gaps in armor, attacking vital points etc.


Quote
As with the Plate armor, Maybe? Either the Chinese never thought of it, the climate wasn't good for it, they never encountered the stuff,
The Europeans encountered a form from the Romans, who encountered it from the Greeks or they government so regulated the army that nobody could experiment with it. The Chinese were a very regular army while the European armies, most soldiers brought their own stuff.

Hmm I guess.

You mean this right? (Image Bellow)

(http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/Lorica_Segmentata-2_small.JPG)

I thought most of Europe had standardized equipment during the late medieval period.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 01, 2013, 12:00:01 AM
I thought most of Europe had standardized equipment during the late medieval period.


Sometimes, usually not, archers usually made or brought their own bows and sidearms, but the lord did supply arrows.
Men at arms usually carried what they could afford, every thing from swords to poleaxes.
Knights were the elite and carried what suited them best on the battlefield.

Battles would get really diverse, You might see someone with a Falchion against someone with a mace.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 01, 2013, 12:20:20 AM

Lamellar is actually pretty strong especially ones made from steel. China also had paper armor, which was also very strong. (See video bellow)

don't get me wrong--I agree. I was just commenting on how different the preferences were.



What always puzzled me is that with such advance metallurgy they never made plate armor.

The videos I posted earlier. The playlist about the armor On the first video I think they missed a few things. The armors that the terracotta soldiers wore from about 5:30 to the end on the first video. I  read that some of them were made from bronze and iron. (See article bellow)

http://www.history-of-armor.com/ChineseArmor.html

could be the Chinese' strong bureaucratic tradition: judging from what I've seen, they mass-produced armor and weapons for hundreds of thousands of men (even millions) in state run factories, so any dramatic change in the main type of armor is less likely compared to in Europe or the Near and Middle east. that and when issuing armor to hundreds of thousands, the armor type is actually more economical: you don't have to worry as much about tailoring the armor to the user (as was the case--ideally--for plate). similar logic explains why maille, while used, was never as popular: it's time consuming to make compared to lamellar or scale (involving tens of thousands of rings), and isn't as effective at halting blunt damage (which in Europe and the near east was rectified by wearing padding underneath).

Quote
I thought most of Europe had standardized equipment during the late medieval period.

well, not really: France and Spain heavily regulated what the soldiers could bring to battle, as did the private Landesknecht companies and the Swiss, but the soldiers (or increasingly, the captains and colonels) typically still had to buy the equipment themselves from private sources, sometimes as recently as the late 18th century or beyond (for officers for instance). So there could be a bit of variation in the appearance and specific items the soldiers went to battle with.

@ R.E.H.W.R.: I doubt weather was a factor: iron armor in general rusts in the humid climate of southern china easily--including the iron versions of the lamellar and scale armors popular in the region.

besides, judging from surviving artifacts, they had the technology to at least retard rusting. And they could make large sheets of high quality material, so I doubt the thought didn't cross their minds
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 01, 2013, 12:30:29 AM
@ R.E.H.W.R.: I doubt weather was a factor: iron armor in general rusts in the humid climate of southern china easily--including the iron versions of the lamellar and scale armors popular in the region.

besides, judging from surviving artifacts, they had the technology to at least retard rusting. And they could make large sheets of high quality material, so I doubt the thought didn't cross their minds

Again that was a "maybe" answer.
History, as much I love history, is a bitch to find to real answers.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 01, 2013, 12:36:22 AM
Again that was a "maybe" answer.
History, as much I love history, is a bitch to find to real answers.

It and Paleontology: but that's what makes it fun for me and you (I presume): there is no end to the questions, mysteries to solve or at least take a stab at.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 01, 2013, 03:30:17 AM
It and Paleontology: but that's what makes it fun for me and you (I presume): there is no end to the questions, mysteries to solve or at least take a stab at.

Grammar dude!
You and I.

I wish I had a Pirillo video for this.
Lol.  ;D
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on April 01, 2013, 08:45:05 AM
Grammar dude!
You and I.

I wish I had a Pirillo video for this.
Lol.  ;D

Actually, I'm pretty sure he's right and you're wrong.  The way to test is to use each pronoun individually and see if the grammar is still correct.  'Me' is the correct pronoun in that position, 'I' is not.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on April 01, 2013, 09:00:47 AM
Again that was a "maybe" answer.
History, as much I love history, is a bitch to find to real answers.

Europeans developed plate armor in response to changing weapons and techniques for using them that required large, rigid plates over heavy padding for protection (which, of course, led to the development of new weapons and techniques to defeat the plate armors developed, leading to more sophisticated plate armors, etc., etc.).

Part of the reason for this is likely the sheer volume of warfare in Europe through the medieval period, which was more or less constant (although generally on a remarkably small scale as viewed from a modern perspective).  With constantly shifting alliances, and numerous enemies and rivals ready to pounce if they saw a big enough advantage, there was an enormous drive for those with resources (which meant those with the armies, such as they were) to develop new weapons and fighting techniques, and new defenses so give them the edge on the battlefield that might make the difference between winning and dieing.

China was politically unified for most of the same time period with limit internal strife and little cause for development of new weapons, techniques, and defenses in the military.  The previous era, the Warring States Period, did see huge advances in weapons, combat techniques, and defenses, for exactly the reasons Europe had them later.  Europe, however, had time for the advances of the Warring States Period to percolate westwards and form part of the basis of European warfare technology, along the Silk Road trade routes (in the form of the arms and equipment of the caravan guards, if nothing else).  (The Silk Road is known to have been operating during Roman times, and the Romans were well aware of the existence of the Kingdom of Ch'in, if a little fuzzy about the exact location and other details.)
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: MrBogosity on April 01, 2013, 09:37:37 AM
Grammar dude!
You and I.

No, objective case. "Me" is correct.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 01, 2013, 03:22:43 PM
No, objective case. "Me" is correct.

Whoops.
Proof you should always listen to your mother reading over your shoulder.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 01, 2013, 03:26:59 PM
Whoops.
Proof you should always listen to your mother reading over your shoulder.

no worries.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 01, 2013, 08:47:03 PM

Not bad huh?

Your opinions?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 01, 2013, 11:17:33 PM

Not bad huh?

Your opinions?

Mike Loades and John Clements always improve a hostory documentary.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 02, 2013, 10:44:18 PM
Mike Loades and John Clements always improve a hostory documentary.

Better than than a lot of documentaries on the history channel that's for sure.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 02, 2013, 11:47:38 PM
Better than than a lot of  on the history channel that's for sure.

The history channel has "documentaries"?
Thought is all was reality shows.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 03, 2013, 12:09:49 AM
The history channel has "documentaries"?
Thought is all was reality shows.

They use to have some documentaries but that was a long time ago. I haven't watched anything recent but I have heard some bad stuff. I did like some of their firearms documentaries, but they really don't show stuff like this anymore. Here is an example of one of those firearms documentaries.



Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 03, 2013, 02:00:18 AM
They use to have some documentaries but that was a long time ago. I haven't watched anything recent but I have heard some bad stuff. I did like some of their firearms documentaries, but they really don't show stuff like this anymore. Here is an example of one of those firearms documentaries.

I was being sarcastic!
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 03, 2013, 02:13:02 AM
I was being sarcastic!

Oh.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 07, 2013, 10:13:37 PM
I think the only reason this didn't cut into the skin is that the pig hide has been left out.

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 01:24:47 AM



This documentary shows the diversity of Chinese weapons and it goes into the legends and accounts of their uses. It also goes into the different schools of martial arts that formed through out their history.

Couple notes.: I was surprised that they never mentioned the blast furnace that was developed during the Han dynasty, cause swords made from using blast furnaces were said to be extremely high quality or so I've heard.

If the Ming swords were indeed that bad all i can say is just wow.

You can also use this against people who are for gun control. If they call gun right advocates old fashioned, just tell them that you believe in something that goes all the way back to Ancient China.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 08, 2013, 02:43:37 PM
They are good. Those maces are defiantly not made for really heavy duty armor like plate.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 03:20:20 PM
They are good. Those maces are defiantly not made for really heavy duty armor like plate.

Chinese usually had scale, lamellar, or coat of plates.

I'm pretty sure they could have come up with something if they encountered European plate armor seeing how diverse their weapons were.

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 08, 2013, 04:32:16 PM
Chinese usually had scale, lamellar, or coat of plates.

I'm pretty sure they could have come up with something if they encountered European plate armor seeing how diverse their weapons were.

Probably, I don't think it would help. Then, again I'm biased.
Not sure what they could have done against the European lance.

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 05:07:58 PM
Probably, I don't think it would help. Then, again I'm biased.
Not sure what they could have done against the European lance.

A lance? I'm pretty sure that they find ways to counter it. they could build traps, dig pits that horses could fall into or make a lance of their own. A lance is basically a thick giant spear after all.

Quote
They are good. Those maces are defiantly not made for really heavy duty armor like plate.

I don't know. That giant hammer looks like it can do some damage. Even if it does not kill it can defiantly maim to the point of being taken out of battle.


 
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 08, 2013, 06:22:44 PM
A lance? I'm pretty sure that they find ways to counter it. they could build traps, dig pits that horses could fall into or make a lance of their own. A lance is basically a thick giant spear after all.

Problem with pit traps is that they take time and effort to make. Maybe if it was a siege or they were protecting a town.
The Chinese did have lances, but they were alot like the ones Europeans first used, which were long spears.

European lances were more for shock strikes, made for hitting an enemy hard, with very narrow points.
Another thing people mistake is the the lances broke when they hit someone, tournament ones did that so people were less likely to be killed.

Quote
I don't know. That giant hammer looks like it can do some damage. Even if it does not kill it can defiantly maim to the point of being taken out of battle.

Problem is that, that hammer can be heavy, but its reach is pretty short compared to a lance, and most knights carried kite shaped shields, that protected both men and the horse.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
Quote
Problem is that, that hammer can be heavy, but its reach is pretty short compared to a lance, and most knights carried kite shaped shields, that protected both men and the horse.

I thought you meant combat on foot. Chinese had shields as well much like this

(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/8100/shieldjp3.jpg)
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 08, 2013, 10:07:30 PM
Here's the difference.

(http://www.seiyaku.com/images/puzzle/mystery07/kite-shield-large.jpg)
(http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/pix/kite_shield.jpg)
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 10:36:03 PM
Here's the difference.

(http://www.seiyaku.com/images/puzzle/mystery07/kite-shield-large.jpg)
(http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/pix/kite_shield.jpg)

One of the image is not showing up.

I think I have seen this shield before. This was also used by the Normans and the Saxons, am I correct?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 08, 2013, 10:49:57 PM
One of the image is not showing up.

I think I have seen this shield before. This was also used by the Normans and the Saxons, am I correct?
Which one? I can see them both.

Its were it was first used in cavalry.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 08, 2013, 10:52:14 PM
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 10:52:46 PM
Which one? I can see them both.

Its were it was first used in cavalry.

Top one, at least on my  computer
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 08, 2013, 11:10:39 PM
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

This is essay is  pretty spot on. Too many factors to take into consideration.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 09, 2013, 02:11:18 AM
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

the essay is right: depends on a lot of variables.

And frankly now, the only way the question would be any more pointless was if it's a knight v. a faris....





Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 09, 2013, 04:12:05 AM
the essay is right: depends on a lot of variables.

And frankly now, the only way the question would be any more pointless was if it's a knight v. a faris....

by a faris do you mean Furusiyya?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 09, 2013, 02:50:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL05012F0E0C42D0B5

Time Commanders.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 09, 2013, 06:08:29 PM
by a faris do you mean Furusiyya?


they're related: Furusiyya was and is the art of being a knight (or in Arabic, a "faris"). It's kind of equivalent to chivalry, but is understood to refer to more than just the code.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 09, 2013, 07:09:49 PM

they're related: Furusiyya was and is the art of being a knight (or in Arabic, a "faris"). It's kind of equivalent to chivalry, but is understood to refer to more than just the code.

would like to see a doc. about it.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 09, 2013, 08:32:55 PM
would like to see a doc. about it.

good luck with that....I have looked for years, and found none. some scattering of stuff courtesy of Terry Jones (the Monty Python one). most of it is in book form: the more famous (to the west), is the Persian version, which is the earlier of the two--the ones who fought the Romans, and later their Byzantine successors: the Persians called them Savaran or something.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 09, 2013, 08:54:47 PM
good luck with that....I have looked for years, and found none. some scattering of stuff courtesy of Terry Jones (the Monty Python one). most of it is in book form: the more famous (to the west), is the Persian version, which is the earlier of the two--the ones who fought the Romans, and later their Byzantine successors: the Persians called them Savaran or something.

Speaking of Persians




Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 11, 2013, 01:09:22 AM
The fail here is the comments by Sushant Reddy.

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 18, 2013, 03:41:33 PM
http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 19, 2013, 12:10:34 AM
Anyone know any other medieval fighting manuals? I know there is Talhoffer's fighting techniques, but that's all I know.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 19, 2013, 12:17:00 AM
Anyone know any other medieval fighting manuals? I know there is Talhoffer's fighting techniques, but that's all I know.

Here you go.
http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 19, 2013, 12:26:16 AM
Here you go.
http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

Thanks  ;D
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 19, 2013, 05:14:25 PM

Opinions? Input?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 24, 2013, 08:29:41 PM
Something I've never understood. Why is it that Europe is the only part of the world who stuck with the double edged straight sword?
Just about every nation I've studied usually goes with a curved blade.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 24, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
Something I've never understood. Why is it that Europe is the only part of the world who stuck with the double edged straight sword?
Just about every nation I've studied usually goes with a curved blade.

Don't you guys have the Falchion? I guess they felt they did not need to change since the straight sword served them so well since the time of the celts and romans.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 24, 2013, 08:55:34 PM
Don't you guys have the Falchion? I guess they felt they did not need to change since the straight sword served them so well since the time of the celts and romans.

Well, ya. But, it seems that Europe was the only part of the world were the best weapons you could get.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 24, 2013, 11:08:43 PM
Something I've never understood. Why is it that Europe is the only part of the world who stuck with the double edged straight sword?
Just about every nation I've studied usually goes with a curved blade.

the Arabs also stuck to straight, double edged swords, at least until the Ottoman (or in the Levant and Egypt, Mamluk), period, when the Turks introduced them (and the Mongols solidying the trend). As you can imagine from the implication, the style was introduced to most parts of the word: it originated from China and its environs, and spread around as the people spread/invaded/migrated to the outlying regions. So the Japanese basically got their idea (in all likelyhood) for a sword from this weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhanmadao) or similar, and the Arabs got it from the Turks and Mongols.

why did it replace the straight sword? style I guess. I'm told it may be better at cutting, but how much so, I dunno, if at all.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 24, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
why did it replace the straight sword? style I guess. I'm told it may be better at cutting, but how much so, I dunno, if at all.

Not necessarily. A blunt bastard sword can cut a tatami mat just as well as a curved sword.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 24, 2013, 11:51:42 PM
Not necessarily. A blunt bastard sword can cut a tatami mat just as well as a curved sword.

well, yeah, but I didn't say otherwise. I simply mentioned that people told me that it is better, but reiterated that I don't know if it is true. :shrug:
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 25, 2013, 12:16:01 AM
well, yeah, but I didn't say otherwise. I simply mentioned that people told me that it is better, but reiterated that I don't know if it is true. :shrug:

I'm kinda thinking that maybe its like the ak 47 vs m16.

Curved swords may be cheaper to reduce, but are still reliable.
Maybe. :shrug:
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: MrBogosity on April 25, 2013, 08:11:30 AM
I would think with a curved sword you'd get more of a sliding motion when you swung it, aiding in the cut.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on April 25, 2013, 08:35:53 AM
Europeans used curved swords for a long time.  Cavalry sabres are curved (not a lot, mostly towards the tip) single-edged blades intended specifically to be used from horseback  They were in use right up until WWI by everyone, and those nations that still had horse cavalry later on (both Poland and the US kept using horse cavalry for some kinds of operations until WWII) kept using them.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 25, 2013, 11:48:54 AM
I would think with a curved sword you'd get more of a sliding motion when you swung it, aiding in the cut.

More like a draw cut. As you hit the target, you would draw through.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: MrBogosity on April 25, 2013, 01:56:14 PM
More like a draw cut. As you hit the target, you would draw through.

I was just thinking about how much easier it is to cut something (a steak, butter, etc.) by sliding the knife back and forth than pushing it. Not that I have any expertise here, but it seems to me that swinging a straight sword is more like pushing the knife in, where the curved blade would make more of a sliding cut.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 25, 2013, 03:23:18 PM
I was just thinking about how much easier it is to cut something (a steak, butter, etc.) by sliding the knife back and forth than pushing it. Not that I have any expertise here, but it seems to me that swinging a straight sword is more like pushing the knife in, where the curved blade would make more of a sliding cut.

the difference is the point of percussion. Most curved swords, with the exception of thick ones, point of percussion is at the last few inches of the tip, so you must cut most hit the target and draw through to do a lot of damage. Very thick curved swords, POC (point of percussion) is usually in the middle of the blade as they are usually chopping blades.

Straight double edged blades POC is below the tip, mostly cause the tip is narrower, but, it has the weird effect of having an easier time going through hard materials. Its kind of a hacking slice, if that makes any sense. Also, at least that is the case for European swords, fighters would grab the sword by the blade and swing the hilt at the other fighter, usually hitting with the pommel. Which is where, "to pommel someone to death" might come from.

I think the difference is that the curved sword's goal is to heavily damage tissue, while, a Straight double edged blade's is to go through what it hits.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on May 01, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on May 02, 2013, 07:19:10 PM

UGH!
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on May 03, 2013, 03:30:56 PM

UGH!

eh I've seen worse.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on May 03, 2013, 04:58:43 PM
eh I've seen worse.

Still bad.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on May 03, 2013, 05:02:24 PM
Still bad.

ee yup
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on May 03, 2013, 11:53:12 PM
http://www.thearma.org/essays/influence.htm

This is why I hate that we forgot our martial heritage.
Seems everyone will make up crap about it.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on May 07, 2013, 08:14:59 PM
thought I'd never see this again: While it isn't from the far east, it is about another unrecognized or forgotten style of martial arts--namely near eastern ones:

entreri.egloos.com/5075869 (http://entreri.egloos.com/5075869)

it's a manual for middle eastern knights (or fursan)--specifically the mamlukes (being from the 15th016th century): foot combat, horse combat, even wrestling on horseback, are all included in this partial scan of the manual. I'm translating it in my spare time (being medieval Arabic, the style is a bit weird, and spelling/handwriting atrocious).

EDIT: here's what the fifth plate says (four men, all with maces (or rather, sticks)):

"section of the how to of fencing with the mace on the ground"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*possibly referring to the giving of blows.


here another plate (two men grappling on horseback):

"Section of fighting/countering on horseback with the hands"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on May 07, 2013, 10:29:29 PM
(http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/korea/busan/armoredhorseman.jpg)

Korean three kingdom era cataphracts
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on May 07, 2013, 11:54:05 PM
thought I'd never see this again: While it isn't from the far east, it is about another unrecognized or forgotten style of martial arts--namely near eastern ones:

entreri.egloos.com/5075869 (http://entreri.egloos.com/5075869)

it's a manual for middle eastern knights (or fursan)--specifically the mamlukes (being from the 15th016th century): foot combat, horse combat, even wrestling on horseback, are all included in this partial scan of the manual. I'm translating it in my spare time (being medieval Arabic, the style is a bit weird, and spelling/handwriting atrocious).

EDIT: here's what the fifth plate says (four men, all with maces (or rather, sticks)):

"section of the how to of fencing with the mace on the ground"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*possibly referring to the giving of blows.


here another plate (two men grappling on horseback):

"Section of fighting/countering on horseback with the hands"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dude, that's an awesome find.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on June 02, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
here's a topic not discussed regularly: European siege weapons:

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on June 03, 2013, 09:21:10 AM
here's a topic not discussed regularly: European siege weapons:


I recall watching this show some years ago.

It demonstrates the power of experimental archeology, and makes for some really good educational television.  There are a number of good programs about people testing out ides about how the Egyptian pyramids and obelisks were done as well.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on June 30, 2013, 09:55:56 AM
Can someone explain why the fingers of the off hand are touching the sword hand?

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on June 30, 2013, 12:30:48 PM
Can someone explain why the fingers of the off hand are touching the sword hand?


Even I have no clue :shrug:
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on June 30, 2013, 09:36:22 PM
Even I have no clue :shrug:

Just seems like a big HIT THIS ARM! sign to me.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on June 30, 2013, 11:25:13 PM
Quote
Just seems like a big HIT THIS ARM! sign to me.

I guess these are more theatrical sword arts not military arts.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on July 01, 2013, 10:17:23 AM
I guess these are more theatrical sword arts not military arts.

hard to say: a lot of the fancier ones are justritualized versions of original practical styles. And in fact most of the moves kinda match what I've seen in Europe and the Near east.

the one weird part though I'm not sure about. same with the part where he fish tails the sword: creepy stuff.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on July 01, 2013, 04:38:36 PM
hard to say: a lot of the fancier ones are justritualized versions of original practical styles. And in fact most of the moves kinda match what I've seen in Europe and the Near east.

the one weird part though I'm not sure about. same with the part where he fish tails the sword: creepy stuff.

If i wanted to go into battle I probably want this whammer.


This would probably snap most swords in two.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on July 01, 2013, 08:25:46 PM
If i wanted to go into battle I probably want this whammer.


This would probably snap most swords in two.

Probably just knock them off line.
Not a big deal for some swords like a side sword.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on July 06, 2013, 01:24:35 AM
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on July 06, 2013, 01:27:31 AM
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on July 09, 2013, 08:12:10 PM
So, the 2006 BBC Robin Hood show has Robin using a recurve bow from the mideast.
 Wouldn't the humid spring and summers of England affect the glue used in them?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: ArtemisVale on July 19, 2013, 01:23:09 PM
If i wanted to go into battle I probably want this whammer.


This would probably snap most swords in two.

Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on July 19, 2013, 02:51:12 PM


I would probably want this more in a medieval battle
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on July 19, 2013, 02:52:08 PM
check it out guys
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on July 20, 2013, 05:56:41 PM
check it out guys


ARRRGH! YOU BROKE MY FAAATAH'S SWOOOORD!!! :P
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Travis Retriever on August 30, 2013, 12:10:36 PM
http://www.cracked.com/article_20634_6-things-movies-get-wrong-about-swords-an-inside-look.html
If not disused already. :P
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on September 01, 2013, 03:19:55 PM
http://www.cracked.com/article_20634_6-things-movies-get-wrong-about-swords-an-inside-look.html
If not disused already. :P

God, I remember believing all that crap!
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on September 01, 2013, 07:40:12 PM
God, I remember believing all that crap!

we were all young and stupid once :P

(I used to think number's 3 and 2 were real. OK, I kinda think number two is still true XD)
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Travis Retriever on September 01, 2013, 11:01:31 PM
we were all young and stupid once :P

(I used to think number's 3 and 2 were real. OK, I kinda think number two is still true XD)
For the sake of fairness their arguments in #2 sound like "no, we've never had a heavier than air flying machine, we'll never discover/invert one."  Short of being all knowing, that's a rather blanket statement of them, no?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on September 01, 2013, 11:14:51 PM
For the sake of fairness their arguments in #2 sound like "no, we've never had a heavier than air flying machine, we'll never discover/invert one."  Short of being all knowing, that's a rather blanket statement of them, no?

Of course, it does have the air of authoritativeness.  really though, the magic I refer to is really the magic in being able to turn dirt to a shiny pretty looking weapon: even after the science is known, there is still that element of mystery to it, which adds the magic to it.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on October 22, 2013, 03:55:37 PM
Just got this puppy of a sparring sword.
(http://www.superiorswords.com/uploads/66530/images/91728/pr9032.jpg)
and it is awesome.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on October 22, 2013, 06:36:49 PM
Just got this puppy of a sparring sword.
(http://www.superiorswords.com/uploads/66530/images/91728/pr9032.jpg)
and it is awesome.

Is the serious version of this intended as a slashing sword only, or is it also a thrusting sword?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on October 24, 2013, 07:42:12 AM
Is the serious version of this intended as a slashing sword only, or is it also a thrusting sword?

It's based on a scottish broad sword, so both.
You can put any nylon blade that's one handed on the handle though.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on November 03, 2013, 12:34:35 AM
http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/EspadayDaga.html

This line is so full of fail.

Quote
The Filipinos imitated the Spanish version of Espada Y Daga and soon found the weaknesses working a way to make the offensive moves complicated so Spaniards could not counter it.

Really?!?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on November 09, 2013, 04:44:31 PM
check this out: I think you will all be interested here:


Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on November 09, 2013, 11:05:16 PM

greeks too. Wha cha think?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on November 13, 2013, 08:27:56 PM

And I had to stop at samurai part.

I think they used every myth in the book. Including Masamune invented the katana, who we're not even sure existed at all.
And it was the katana that stopped the mongols not geography and a lucky storm.

UGHHHHH!
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on January 06, 2014, 05:10:18 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110719194352.htm

Heavy Metal Hardens Battle: Body Armor Hindered Medieval Warriors

Ah, no. The reason the French lost at the Battle of Agincourt was that were forced to charge head on due to the landscape.
The same thing would have happened if they were unarmored.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: dallen68 on January 06, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110719194352.htm

Heavy Metal Hardens Battle: Body Armor Hindered Medieval Warriors

Ah, no. The reason the French lost at the Battle of Agincourt was that were forced to charge head on due to the landscape.
The same thing would have happened if they were unarmored.

Plus, it's generally easier to carry significant amounts of weight that are as evenly distributed as possible, as opposed to all in one thing like a backpack.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on January 06, 2014, 06:42:17 PM
Plus, it's generally easier to carry significant amounts of weight that are as evenly distributed as possible, as opposed to all in one thing like a backpack.

Plus, they used used museum armor instead of fitted armor.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on January 07, 2014, 08:08:05 AM
Plus, they used used museum armor instead of fitted armor.

A major reason plate armor was so expensive was because it had to be individually fitted by a specialist armorsmith.  If you don't do that, and then train in how to properly USE the armor in combat, it's nearly worthless. Suits used as decoration might not even be real, practical armor in the first place, even if they look like it.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on January 07, 2014, 08:45:49 AM
A major reason plate armor was so expensive was because it had to be individually fitted by a specialist armorsmith.  If you don't do that, and then train in how to properly USE the armor in combat, it's nearly worthless. Suits used as decoration might not even be real, practical armor in the first place, even if they look like it.

Well, that and its a lot of tempered steel. Lots of little pieces and rivets.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on January 07, 2014, 02:02:03 PM
Well, that and its a lot of tempered steel. Lots of little pieces and rivets.

Question? How much was a coat of plates compared to full suit of plate?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on January 07, 2014, 05:24:03 PM
Question? How much was a coat of plates compared to full suit of plate?

Well, from what I've seen, knights used to wear them before plate mail was popular and it kinda later was used by man at arms, since it was a little cheaper than full plate.

Both a coat and a breastplate are just as useful for protecting your torso, you will need to add some mail and gauntlets to protect your arms though, if you are using a coat.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: ArtemisVale on February 14, 2014, 08:43:11 PM
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: ArtemisVale on February 14, 2014, 09:27:35 PM

What do you guys think of the talwar vs katana debate?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on February 14, 2014, 11:06:41 PM

What do you guys think of the talwar vs katana debate?

1. the video doesn't work. 2. It would be interesting to watch.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: ArtemisVale on February 15, 2014, 12:04:56 AM
1. the video doesn't work. 2. It would be interesting to watch.

fixed. sorry.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on February 15, 2014, 01:50:10 AM

What do you guys think of the talwar vs katana debate?


hard to say. it depends on the skill of the user I guess, and the efficiency of the design: the more efficient, the easier it is to cut with, but skill can compensate. that's why that Clements guy cut that tatami in two with a blunt bastard sword.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on February 15, 2014, 04:05:24 PM

hard to say. it depends on the skill of the user I guess, and the efficiency of the design: the more efficient, the easier it is to cut with, but skill can compensate. that's why that Clements guy cut that tatami in two with a blunt bastard sword.

Can you name some famous middle eastern swordsmen?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on February 18, 2014, 06:17:57 AM

Can you name some famous middle eastern swordsmen?

Ali ibn abi-talib comes to mind (he was the Prophet's cousin, fourth Caliph, and among the Shia, second only to Muhammad himself (first if you are a member of the ghulat)). he didn't set up schools, but he was known to be invincible in a duel--and he fought lots of those (for military reasons): his trademark weapon was a double pronged sword (which was straight edged: curved swords come with the Turks). Many Early Muslim celebrities were known to be skilled duelists as well: these were all for military purposes, the idea being to demoralize the enemy by killing their champions (for example at Yarmouk, the battle began with a series of duels). again, the sword was the weapon of choice.

makes me wish all modern armies started their battles by having the leaders of the respective armies/countries/forces fight duels to the death themselves...
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on February 18, 2014, 08:31:00 AM
Ali ibn abi-talib comes to mind (he was the Prophet's cousin, fourth Caliph, and among the Shia, second only to Muhammad himself (first if you are a member of the ghulat)). he didn't set up schools, but he was known to be invincible in a duel--and he fought lots of those (for military reasons): his trademark weapon was a double pronged sword (which was straight edged: curved swords come with the Turks). Many Early Muslim celebrities were known to be skilled duelists as well: these were all for military purposes, the idea being to demoralize the enemy by killing their champions (for example at Yarmouk, the battle began with a series of duels). again, the sword was the weapon of choice.

makes me wish all modern armies started their battles by having the leaders of the respective armies/countries/forces fight duels to the death themselves...

were there ever martial arts schools in the middle east.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on February 18, 2014, 07:33:15 PM
were there ever martial arts schools in the middle east.

Of course there were (though whether in the European way of establishing schools is another matter: Government has always been more centralized in the region, so military training worked more like armies today), but the Problem is that most have been largely abandoned and/or forgotten: what use is a sword in an age when your enemy next door has cluster bombs and unmanned drones?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on February 18, 2014, 10:53:24 PM
Of course there were (though whether in the European way of establishing schools is another matter: Government has always been more centralized in the region, so military training worked more like armies today), but the Problem is that most have been largely abandoned and/or forgotten: what use is a sword in an age when your enemy next door has cluster bombs and unmanned drones?

Ask Mad Jack Churchill.  He always took a sword with him, and sometimes a longbow as well (and is credited with killing in battle with it).  This is in WWII, mind you, so no cluster bombs (unless you counts the way bombing operated, which was rather worse), but there were unmanned drones, used by both sides.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on February 19, 2014, 03:03:26 PM
Ask Mad Jack Churchill.  He always took a sword with him, and sometimes a longbow as well (and is credited with killing in battle with it).  This is in WWII, mind you, so no cluster bombs (unless you counts the way bombing operated, which was rather worse), but there were unmanned drones, used by both sides.

yeah, the "Mad" part in his name should be a warning that he wasn't going to operate by normal rules :P
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on February 19, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
yeah, the "Mad" part in his name should be a warning that he wasn't going to operate by normal rules :P

Well, no, he didn't.  He liked to have his bagpipes with him as well.  (Being a Scott also suggests he's probably not going to want to operate by normal rules.)  He even played them once while waiting to be captured, surrounded by the bodies of literally his entire unit. The German troops were apparently somewhat scared of him, since (a) Scotts were generally regarded by Germans as being completely mad anyway, and (b) he's sitting out in the open making a tremendous racket after losing a massive firefight really badly.

He joined straight into the Commandos, not really knowing anything about what that was except it was dangerous and therefore fun.

After being captured, he simply walked away from prison camps until they stuck him in Colditz, the castle where they held the most persistently successful escapees. He was working on getting out of there (he was involved in the quite audacious glider project the prisoners had going) when the war ended in Europe.

He was about to head out for the Far East when Japan surrendered, and is reported to have been annoyed at the war ending at that point.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on February 20, 2014, 04:49:35 AM
well, on the subject of lost arts, it turns out someone has revived Mameluke/seljuk/Persian style shooting...in Denmark:


Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on February 20, 2014, 04:27:15 PM

This comment on this video by yamashisho.

Quote
>the greatsword have 2 hard edges but a soft center that can take the impact far easier than the katana.>

Hard = Tough

Although this formula is half right, it is half wrong .
Glass is harder than steel. But, glass is weaker than steel.
The intensity of the material of a sword is decided by hardness and adhesive correlation. Moreover, the intensity of a blade is decided by correlation of hardness and pliability.

A tough sword cannot be made only from element of one of the two .
Therefore, both of Japanese blade and European blade had the hardest edge and other portions is soft in comparison.
In the case where  the single edge blade sword and double edge blade sword which were made from the material of the same mass ,when the pressure is added to edge side , the single edge blade sword is stronger than double edge blade sword .
Therefore, this video is FAKE.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on February 23, 2014, 11:40:55 PM
I am getting so sick of katana fanboys using this video as proof that katanas are better than european blades.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on February 25, 2014, 10:45:46 PM
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on March 11, 2014, 05:58:44 PM
I'm really starting to hate asianphilies.
I really hate how people dump on anything European.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 03, 2014, 11:16:39 PM

hard to say. it depends on the skill of the user I guess, and the efficiency of the design: the more efficient, the easier it is to cut with, but skill can compensate. that's why that Clements guy cut that tatami in two with a blunt bastard sword.

Do you know of any historical sources on how Composite recurve bows did in wet humid weather?
I'm getting some people saying that they will be less effective and people who say it won't affect them.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 04, 2014, 02:06:02 AM
Do you know of any historical sources on how Composite recurve bows did in wet humid weather?
I'm getting some people saying that they will be less effective and people who say it won't affect them.

no explicit mentions, but I know of this:

people in India often swapped traditional composite bows for steel bows. Glues back then weren't waterproof (at least in the context of bows), and the materials were all organic, so in a very humid and rainy place (e.g. India), a bow would quickly fall apart. A steel bow didn't do that, and the technology did exist to retard rusting, so such a bow would be effective in India.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Skm1091 on April 04, 2014, 02:45:45 AM
no explicit mentions, but I know of this:

people in India often swapped traditional composite bows for steel bows. Glues back then weren't waterproof (at least in the context of bows), and the materials were all organic, so in a very humid and rainy place (e.g. India), a bow would quickly fall apart. A steel bow didn't do that, and the technology did exist to retard rusting, so such a bow would be effective in India.

Steel bows eh? Those required a lot of strength to draw, am I right?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 04, 2014, 03:31:31 AM
Steel bows eh? Those required a lot of strength to draw, am I right?

According to this article, the draw weight of this steel bow was 50 lbs.
http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_dec04.htm
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on April 04, 2014, 07:44:04 AM
According to this article, the draw weight of this steel bow was 50 lbs.
http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_dec04.htm

There's lots of ways to change the draw weight of a steel bow. Fundamentally, it's just a spring, after all. Even if you can't control the carbon content of the steel precisely (which you can't with crucible steel, precisely predetermined carbon content in steel didn't come along until the Bessemer Process in the 19th century) you can still alter the temper and geometry of the bow in subtle ways to change the draw weight.

The only thing that's really different than what was done in Europe is Europeans mostly switched to crossbows before adopting steel bows to make them more compact.

Incidentally, I can't locate the draw weight for the steel bow on that page. The 50 lb. draw weight on that page is for the composite bow.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: Ibrahim90 on April 04, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
Steel bows eh? Those required a lot of strength to draw, am I right?

if you built it like Europeans did, yes.

but the Indians wanted something that could be drawn by hand like a normal bow, so one thing you'll notice is that the steel bows are very thin front to back compared to normal examples--basically a long, sturdy sheet. besides, they had the means to get the right type of steel, though as evensgrey said it was not easy prior to the Bessemer process. (what the Indians did  was likely to make the crucible steel, and then beat out or rub in the needed carbon content till they got what they wanted--in this case a low carbon steel that was very springy--like the Ulfbehrt swords).

people forget that India was host to some pretty extreme metallurgic skills for centuries: during the Gupta period for example, they made iron pillars, some of which still stand today, after almost 1500 years:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/QtubIronPillar.JPG)

in the Arab world in fact, the finest swords were not locally made (themselves of good quality), but imported from India or produced in Indian Style smithies in Oman and Yemen.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 04, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
if you built it like Europeans did, yes.

but the Indians wanted something that could be drawn by hand like a normal bow (simple or composite), and they could be pretty precise for their day in how to achieve it, though as evensgrey said, they couldn't be exact before the bessemer process.

people forget that India was host to some pretty extreme metallurgic skills for centuries: during the Gupta period for example, they made iron pillars, some of which still stand today, after almost 1500 years:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/QtubIronPillar.JPG)

in the Arab world in fact, the finest swords were not locally made (themselves of good quality), but imported from India or produced in Indian Style smithies in Oman and Yemen.

Well, Europeans were sticking said Arms on crossbows, with tools to pull it back the arms. Had crossbow not become popular in Europe  who knows how bows could have advanced.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 04, 2014, 12:17:42 PM
Incidentally, I can't locate the draw weight for the steel bow on that page. The 50 lb. draw weight on that page is for the composite bow.

Oh, really? I must have misread that.
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on April 04, 2014, 05:35:46 PM
if you built it like Europeans did, yes.

but the Indians wanted something that could be drawn by hand like a normal bow, so one thing you'll notice is that the steel bows are very thin front to back compared to normal examples--basically a long, sturdy sheet. besides, they had the means to get the right type of steel, though as evensgrey said it was not easy prior to the Bessemer process. (what the Indians did  was likely to make the crucible steel, and then beat out or rub in the needed carbon content till they got what they wanted--in this case a low carbon steel that was very springy--like the Ulfbehrt swords).

people forget that India was host to some pretty extreme metallurgic skills for centuries: during the Gupta period for example, they made iron pillars, some of which still stand today, after almost 1500 years:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/QtubIronPillar.JPG)


I just watched a documentary on those Ulfbehrt swords the other day, and they seem to have been made out of ordinary crucible steel. Of course, if the steel isn't right, then the whole thing would probably have cracked at any of the numerous points in the process where you have to do something to it that might crack it. The only thing to do then is smash it to bits and start over with a new crucible. (One of those delicate stages is first getting the crucible ingot to start forming under the forging blows, which is tricky because the stuff us extremely hard due to how it cools. Hit it too hard, and it cracks like a block of glass.)

What I find most impressive about that pillar is that it's still in obviously near-pristine condition (the detail looks quite crisp and clean in the image) despite 1500 years in what is obviously a rather moist climate (judging by the healthy-looking trees and grass in the background, showing no indications of chronic water stress.  Is that the metal itself (which seems unlikely, as only stainless steel creates it's own protective coating, and that pillar surely isn't stainless), or is it some really good paint (and there were really good paints in that time, we just forget that in the west because we tend to only think of Europe, where technology went to hell after Rome fell apart)?
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: R.E.H.W.R. on April 04, 2014, 11:55:04 PM
What I find most impressive about that pillar is that it's still in obviously near-pristine condition (the detail looks quite crisp and clean in the image) despite 1500 years in what is obviously a rather moist climate (judging by the healthy-looking trees and grass in the background, showing no indications of chronic water stress.  Is that the metal itself (which seems unlikely, as only stainless steel creates it's own protective coating, and that pillar surely isn't stainless), or is it some really good paint (and there were really good paints in that time, we just forget that in the west because we tend to only think of Europe, where technology went to hell after Rome fell apart)?

I ripped this from the wikipeda page.
"The pillar has attracted the attention of archaeologists and metallurgists and has been called "a testament to the skill of ancient Indian blacksmiths" because of its high resistance to corrosion.[1] The corrosion resistance results from an even layer of crystalline iron hydrogen phosphate forming on the high phosphorus content iron, which serves to protect it from the effects of the local Delhi climate"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi
Title: Re: Truth Hits You Like Katana Bricks (from Fail Quotes)
Post by: evensgrey on April 05, 2014, 08:45:08 AM
I ripped this from the wikipeda page.
"The pillar has attracted the attention of archaeologists and metallurgists and has been called "a testament to the skill of ancient Indian blacksmiths" because of its high resistance to corrosion.[1] The corrosion resistance results from an even layer of crystalline iron hydrogen phosphate forming on the high phosphorus content iron, which serves to protect it from the effects of the local Delhi climate"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi

Now I'm even more impressed. That stuff must have been a bugger to forge. Phosphorus makes iron brittle, and a piece that size is hard enough to work in the first place.