Author Topic: Doctor Who  (Read 39408 times)

MrBogosity

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2011, 05:49:49 PM »
Type I civilizations can utilize the power of their planet.

Type II can utilize the power of a star.

Type III can utilize the power of a black hole. To a Type III civilization, their only limitations are the laws of physics. Anything physically possible is within their ability.

Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2011, 06:08:05 PM »
Type I civilizations can utilize the power of their planet.

Type II can utilize the power of a star.

Type III can utilize the power of a black hole. To a Type III civilization, their only limitations are the laws of physics. Anything physically possible is within their ability.

No wonder the cybermen had all the effectiveness of stormtroopers when they fought the Daleks. I always wondered about that power disparity.

So, how exactly does this time lock work? As far as I understand it, it seems to (mostly) prevent time travel within that period of time, at least in most cases. Almost as if time were the surface of a planet, and one area was cordoned off with an electric fence. Was the time lock imposed, or did it occur naturally as the Daleks and Time Lords fought? Does it have any retroactive effect on the presence of the time lords before the war? If not, then why couldn't the time lords intervene in other time-related events? Are they prevented from traveling from before the time war to after the time war?

MrBogosity

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2011, 06:42:30 PM »
They never really explained the time lock thing. Apparently it's not just an arbitrary rule that the Time Lords set up; even with the Time Lords gone it can only be crossed at a great price, as Dalek Caan discovered. I'm guessing it's something that happens when you have multiple paradoxes converging the way you do in a Time War. Of course, the Time Lords probably could have set one up deliberately; The Doctor did something like that to the Vardans, setting their planet in a time-loop to prevent them from trying to invade Gallifrey again.

Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2011, 07:11:46 PM »
They never really explained the time lock thing. Apparently it's not just an arbitrary rule that the Time Lords set up; even with the Time Lords gone it can only be crossed at a great price, as Dalek Caan discovered. I'm guessing it's something that happens when you have multiple paradoxes converging the way you do in a Time War. Of course, the Time Lords probably could have set one up deliberately; The Doctor did something like that to the Vardans, setting their planet in a time-loop to prevent them from trying to invade Gallifrey again.

Yeah, but there are several mentions to the Time Lords performing something akin to custodial duties with regards to paradoxes and parallel universes, like in 'Father's Day'. If Time Lords can perceive time the way other species can perceive the room around them and such (AIUI), and can move about it in much the same way, what's to stop some Time Lords from before the Time War from existing in or interacting with the period after the Time War? What's preventing the Time Lords from before the Time War from performing those custodial duties mentioned in "Father's Day"? Does it have something to do with that bit where the Doctor can't cross his own timeline (for the most part)?


MrBogosity

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2011, 07:24:01 PM »
I'm kind of thinking of the Time War as an island, and time travel machines as boats. The war churned up all of these huge currents and waves and vortices that the ships just can't get across.

Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2011, 12:59:17 AM »
I'm kind of thinking of the Time War as an island, and time travel machines as boats. The war churned up all of these huge currents and waves and vortices that the ships just can't get across.

Yeah, but what about the rest of time? The TARDIS has been observed to travel between the end of the universe to just about its beginning without difficulty. If the Doctor can move between the beginning and the end of time, why can't the other Time Lords? What's preventing the time lords referred to in "Father's Day" from "keeping stuff like this from happening" at points past the time war? For that matter, just when DID the time war occur?

I'm reminded of a phrase someone quoted from some parody somewhere, but I can't remember where it's from. Maybe you'd know. "Yeah, sure it's always been there. But had it always been there five minutes ago?"

MrBogosity

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2011, 07:00:54 AM »
Yeah, but what about the rest of time? The TARDIS has been observed to travel between the end of the universe to just about its beginning without difficulty. If the Doctor can move between the beginning and the end of time, why can't the other Time Lords? What's preventing the time lords referred to in "Father's Day" from "keeping stuff like this from happening" at points past the time war? For that matter, just when DID the time war occur?

One thing that's obvious from the Whoniverse is that time isn't linear (wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey). Think of it like an alternate timeline that got cut off. In one sense of it, the Time War never happened. Or, like a blister on space-time that's been closed off to protect the rest of it.

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I'm reminded of a phrase someone quoted from some parody somewhere, but I can't remember where it's from. Maybe you'd know. "Yeah, sure it's always been there. But had it always been there five minutes ago?"

Precisely.

Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2011, 07:27:01 AM »
One thing that's obvious from the Whoniverse is that time isn't linear (wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey). Think of it like an alternate timeline that got cut off. In one sense of it, the Time War never happened. Or, like a blister on space-time that's been closed off to protect the rest of it.

And that's why time travel stories give me headaches at times. :-P

Maybe there's some sort of fifth dimension, like a kind of supertime, that operates separately from normal time. Alterations and modifications to normal time can happen "before" and "after" each other in supertime without affecting the rest of supertime. To use the quote, the 'always been there' part would be normal time, whereas the 'five minutes ago' part would be supertime. Or something like that. It would explain why the Time Lords' apparent ability to sense the normal flow of time apparently failed to predict the events of the Time War and such, and why they apparently can't make modifications to the timeline after the Time War.

I'm also curious as to whether or not the Time Lock resulted in a physical barrier as well. I mean, if I were the cybermen, the Sontarans, or the Shadow Proclamation, the second I heard about the Time War being over, I would be scouring the area looking for salvageable technology. As far as I know, there haven't been too many stories about rogue Time Lord and Dalek technology being recovered and utilized by other less-advanced species. The closest was that episode in season 5 with the time machine (or was it an actual TARDIS from Gallifrey? I don't remember if they ever specified.). Did The Moment end up wiping out all the technology, buildings, etc, or did it result in something else that precluded the possibility of traveling to the area where the battle/s took place?

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2011, 07:41:05 AM »
I always put it like this.
Causality is time travel's bitch.

MrBogosity

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2011, 08:16:47 AM »
Maybe there's some sort of fifth dimension, like a kind of supertime, that operates separately from normal time. Alterations and modifications to normal time can happen "before" and "after" each other in supertime without affecting the rest of supertime. To use the quote, the 'always been there' part would be normal time, whereas the 'five minutes ago' part would be supertime. Or something like that.

I think of it like lanes on a highway. As long as you stay in your lane, you're in your chain of causality. Time travel is the ability to change lanes and see the alternatives. In The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Amy remembered the Clerics even when their fellow Clerics had forgotten them. That's because she had changed lanes from another timeline and they hadn't. In Cold Blood, Amy forgot Rory because they were both from the same lane.

The Time War is a lane that's been blocked off with a concrete wall.

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I'm also curious as to whether or not the Time Lock resulted in a physical barrier as well. I mean, if I were the cybermen, the Sontarans, or the Shadow Proclamation, the second I heard about the Time War being over, I would be scouring the area looking for salvageable technology.

I've thought about that. I've wondered how much rogue technology is out there. I always figured Sil would be the first to get his hands on some...

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As far as I know, there haven't been too many stories about rogue Time Lord and Dalek technology being recovered and utilized by other less-advanced species. The closest was that episode in season 5 with the time machine (or was it an actual TARDIS from Gallifrey? I don't remember if they ever specified.).

No, that's apparently a ship used by the Silence (Silents?).

Although we did see leftover Time Lord technology in the form of the cubes in The Doctor's Wife.

Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2011, 07:29:04 PM »
I think of it like lanes on a highway. As long as you stay in your lane, you're in your chain of causality. Time travel is the ability to change lanes and see the alternatives. In The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Amy remembered the Clerics even when their fellow Clerics had forgotten them. That's because she had changed lanes from another timeline and they hadn't. In Cold Blood, Amy forgot Rory because they were both from the same lane.

The Time War is a lane that's been blocked off with a concrete wall.

I guess it's not just the time war that seems a bit of to me, but the whole thing of actually changing the flow of time. At one point, time flows in a certain way, and changes at another point. If there was a second time dimension that governed changes to normal time, then that would explain how changes in the timeline could apparently occur in some sort of sequence, or even be possible in the first place. Technically, if time behaved normally in the Whoniverse, then all changes to the timeline would be perceived at once, wouldn't it? This could also be utilized to explain the presence of fixed points in time (the eruption of Vesuvius, for example). Perhaps one could argue that in much the same way that the 5th dimension could be said to govern and override the 4th, the sixth could do the same for both. This could then be used to hint at the existence of another race of beings beyond Time Lords and such who have a great enough power to stop the manipulations of those below them. Or maybe I'm just ranting.

Although, I don't think our two ideas are mutually exclusive. It sounds a bit like that theory of all possible eventualities occurring in alternate realities. Perhaps the whole road thing could be the structure of that 5th dimension, or even the time vortex. I mean, we technically exist in the third dimension, but we can't exactly displace ourselves into whatever part of the universe we please. Then again, I think I may have just given a better answer for the explanation of fixed points in time. Then again, I never did quite understood whether those fixed points were just required to occur or the Doctor just didn't have the ability to change them.

I'd love for them to come up with a clever explanation to some of these things. I need to stop examining fictional physics.

I've thought about that. I've wondered how much rogue technology is out there. I always figured Sil would be the first to get his hands on some...

Uhhh... Yeah! Sil! Definitely! I totally know who that is! *desperately peruses the Doctor Who wiki*

No, that's apparently a ship used by the Silence (Silents?).

Although we did see leftover Time Lord technology in the form of the cubes in The Doctor's Wife.

Uuuuhhhh... Spoilers. :-P

Travis Retriever

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2011, 07:43:23 PM »
Type I civilizations can utilize the power of their planet.

Type II can utilize the power of a star.

Type III can utilize the power of a black hole. To a Type III civilization, their only limitations are the laws of physics. Anything physically possible is within their ability.
HOLY SHIT!  That sounds awesome. 0.0
This is in the Doctor Who universe?  Man, I might have to start watching eps of that on YouTube. :P
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
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Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2011, 07:46:10 PM »
HOLY SHIT!  That sounds awesome. 0.0
This is in the Doctor Who universe?  Man, I might have to start watching eps of that on YouTube. :P

Actually, I think it's some scale that someone came up with a while ago that could be utilized for any civilization.

But don't let that stop you. Yes, check out Doctor Who.

MrBogosity

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2011, 08:52:51 PM »
HOLY SHIT!  That sounds awesome. 0.0
This is in the Doctor Who universe?  Man, I might have to start watching eps of that on YouTube. :P

No, that's the Kardashev Scale.

Virgil0211

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2011, 01:23:07 PM »
If he's a flesh avatar, why didn't he melt when he died?

There's a second possibility. The Doctor is the only time lord to be replicated via the flesh. It's possible that the flesh absorbed his regeneration ability as well.