Author Topic: universal health care vs private health care  (Read 57813 times)

Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2009, 08:37:12 AM »
Two questions I hope someone can help me out on.

Got someone who refuses to watch videos debunking universal healthcare.  Says unless it's a research paper, it doesn't count basically.  All the evidence he gave me to support his stance was Ontario's website where it showed the average hospital stay (I brought up the fact that's only the tip of the iceburg and has nothing to do with waiting lists for surgery, but what would I know?  I only LIVE in Canada!  ><).

Yes I know, he's shifting burden of proof here but what can you do?  Oh yeah, also heaving on the nice old salesman's trick of "So what if it's not perfect, we have to do SOMETHING."  Most laughable of all was when he tried to tell me "the stories about how people in Canada go to the US for treatment because our system is going to let them die are just fabrications made by the scare mongering republicans" or whatever.  I showed a news vid of a woman who was such a person and he pulls the "anecdote, doesn't count" excuse suddenly.  o.O

I don't know if anyone can help on this other one but I'll try anyway.  I have a friend in Tenessee who's one of the tragic cases that fell through the proverbial cracks.  Him and his girlfriend are self employed making artwork for a living.  Due to his own medical problems, he is unable to work a "normal" job and naturally the insurance companies won't touch him.  I've comissioned them for their art a few times to help out (and cause I like the drawings) but I've always wished I could give them the peace of mind they want on the matter.  What should people caught in this kind of situation do?
I recently heard that the word heretic is derived from the greek work heriticos which means "able to choose"
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MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2009, 09:38:42 AM »
Got a link for that news vid?

Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2009, 06:44:52 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=refrYKq9tZQ

5:30 though you probably saw it already.  And as the rest of the vid shows, she's not alone.

It makes me glad I hit the genetic jackpot as far as health goes.  Last time I saw the doctor was a year ago when I had the flu but I had to wait 2 weeks to see him and by then the flu was gone, making the whole thing pointless.  ><

The comment really made me angry.  He goes on saying that Canadians going to the US for treatment because they can't wait is a myth, I demonstrate that it is in fact not and he pulls that "I dont' want anecdotes" nonsense.  Just man up and admit that was a stupid statement to make...
I recently heard that the word heretic is derived from the greek work heriticos which means "able to choose"
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MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2009, 06:57:34 PM »
Oh, yeah, that's Stossel. I've seen that.

It'd be nice to have more, though.

Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2009, 07:12:23 PM »
I mostly read about it in my local newspapers.  It's heart breaking to see people let down by a system they believed in so strongly.  As Stossel once said himself: Canadians love their system when they're well.  When they get sick, then they hate it.

Sadly, not many recent ones because it's not the current topic du jour.  I'll try to think of more...

Here's one I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MODV9pdViIA  I'm watching it now.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 07:15:36 PM by Lord T Hawkeye »
I recently heard that the word heretic is derived from the greek work heriticos which means "able to choose"
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MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2009, 07:42:44 PM »
Newspaper references are good, too.

Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2009, 07:59:21 PM »
Bleah, not coming up with much.  My own local paper is mostly focusing on our newly elected premier and the bold faced lies he told to get there.  And here I thought they were reporting NEWS.  ^^;
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MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2009, 09:05:15 PM »
Old newspaper references are fine.

Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2009, 10:28:58 PM »
I'll keep trying but their site's search engine doesn't seem to do anything.  Gotta love big fancy websites with awful user friendliness.
I recently heard that the word heretic is derived from the greek work heriticos which means "able to choose"
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Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2009, 08:27:15 AM »
A response from a German fellow during a healthcare debate

Quote
Okay, explain that to somebody that has, as a well-educated, rational thinking European, allready a hard time to understand they strange twisted ways the brains of the conservative, ignorant, white-trash part of the american populus work, but WHY again do they think that universal health care would not work in the US? Here, let me show you something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Germany
Germanys universal health care system is the oldest in Europe, it is working for almost 130 years now, it DOES have a few problems at the moment, but nobody would question the system because it is prooved and all in all stable. Most other european UHC are basing on the german system, so it is no problem to adapt it to other societies, it would also work in the US. So let me ask again, what the fuck is the problem of these people?

I already said his claim to being well-educated and rational was called into question by his interesting choice of words in describing the opposition.  No response

It was brought up the Germany is smaller and a whole different place making it an unfair comparison.  Wasn't deterred

Quote
I disagree. Something that works for 16 states will also work for 50. And the american populus isn´t THAT much larger than the german one. The USA has a population of about 300 Million people, Germany about 80 Million people, thats just about 3-4 times larger (While we´re at it, all of the EU states have UHCs, which are standartised and regulated by the EU´s central commission in Bruxelles, so in fact you could say the EU has more or less a common UHC (for example if I get sick in Italy or Britain, my German health insurance will pay the doctor or the hospital there without any problem), and the EU has a populus of 450 Million people, 1.5 times the populus of the US, not to mention that the EU is probably the most buerocratic entity oin the history of the planet, yet it still works here).
As I said the model of this system has been adapted to a number of countries, the most current example is the Peoples Republic of China which is currently installing a UHC system basing on the german system, and thats a country with a populus of 1.3 Billion ( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/wo....19590543.html ). You see, that this devaluates your population
argument.

He has yet to respond directly to me.  I don't know if he's avoiding me or what but there you go.
I recently heard that the word heretic is derived from the greek work heriticos which means "able to choose"
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MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2009, 08:49:12 AM »
Germany's system is half-private. And unlike the US, that does NOT mean half-corporatized. And it works so much better than countries with fully-socialized systems. Ask him to explain THAT!

Lord T Hawkeye

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2009, 07:06:14 PM »
Someone else came back with WHO's rankings which show fully socialized countries ranking higher than Germany.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

The lack of criteria for this list does kind of make me suspicious and someone else did point out these are the same people who said swine flu was going to be pandemic.  Who makes up WHO, what's the criteria for this list and how do they acquire the data?
I recently heard that the word heretic is derived from the greek work heriticos which means "able to choose"
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MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2009, 07:56:21 PM »
Always a good question. The WHO has never been that economically-savvy.

11mc22

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2009, 08:27:03 PM »
Someone else came back with WHO's rankings which show fully socialized countries ranking higher than Germany.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

The lack of criteria for this list does kind of make me suspicious and someone else did point out these are the same people who said swine flu was going to be pandemic.  Who makes up WHO, what's the criteria for this list and how do they acquire the data?

Oh, I had posted a comment earlier with a website that had the criteria



Quote
I didn't post this vid because of its content
as you can see there is a guy called the theRadicalliberal in the comment section spouting Michael Moore cliches like life expectancy, infant mortality and the really dumb WHO ranking.
The WHO ranking is based on life expectancy, "fair" financing, and etc etc that has actually nothing to do with health care

http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_world_health_ranks.html

In fact the only thing that does involve health care is RESPONSIVENESS which US ranked number 1 for
http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_systems.html

Should I even bother responding to him?
I'm really tempted but I don't want to waste my time

not only that, his channel looks like a sock puppet.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 08:32:05 PM by 11mc22 »

MrBogosity

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Re: universal health care vs private health care
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2009, 09:49:12 PM »
Our crime rate, including murder, is higher, mostly due to the War on Drugs. We also have more traffic accidents. These things and more pull down our average life expectancy and have nothing to do with health care.

Do they also use infant mortality? That's another bogus criteria. We count infants born with fatal conditions; other countries don't. Additionally, our health care system, being BETTER (in every way other than economic), brings more babies to term that would have died in the womb. Obviously, these babies are going to have a better chance of dying than normal, healthy babies. I tried to explain this to a socialist woo once, and he tried turning it into an issue of abortion!