Author Topic: UFOs and Aliens  (Read 17566 times)

Travis Retriever

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2009, 09:17:51 PM »
No, you have people who see something they don't understand, and their brain tries to fit it into its model of the universe. Those "properties" come from that, NOT the observations.

We don't have a short attention span; we just understand that, how, and why eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable.
To aid our confused friend: 
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2009, 10:05:39 PM »
Ok thank you all for explaining your points of view. It sure is interesting to see how people handle this kind of subject ;)

You are right that eyewitness testimonies all by themselves probably do little more than making interesting stories. However, i think they should be seen in the context of the other evidence, such as physical evidence, films, photo's, radar observations, historical accounts, etc. When you do that, a picture emerges of a phenomenon with anomalous properties which has been witnessed and reported by people for as long as we can remember.

Of course the unreliability of witnesses isn't exactly going to help, but that doesn't mean there isn't an actual phenomenon.

Your stance is kindof like the way it was in medieval times: Meteorites (the pieces that make it to Earth) were long ago thought to be cast down as gifts from angels. Others thought the gods were displaying their anger. As late as the 17th Century, many believed they fell from thunderstorms (they were nicknamed "thunderstones"). Many scientists were skeptical that stones could fall from the the clouds or the heavens, and often they simply didn't believe the accounts of people who claimed to have seen such things.

They dismissed accounts of people who saw it happen, perhaps on the exact same grounds as you do now. If the skeptics had their way, we'd still be calling meteorites 'thunderstones' and believe they were gifts from the gods, and dismiss those who say they witnessed a meteorite fall from the sky as a looney, a 'believer', a nutcase.. after all everyone KNEW that there weren't any stones in the sky, therefore they couldn't fall from the sky either. And do you think that eyewitnesses were any more reliable back then than they are now? Still their observations turned out to be correct.


@surhotchaperchlorome, i meant STAY on youtube, not post whatever crap you find there over here ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 10:25:26 PM by JaquesPlafond »

Travis Retriever

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2009, 10:34:35 PM »
@surhotchaperchlorome, i meant STAY on youtube, not post whatever crap you find there over here ;)
I'll post what I want.
As if you have any kind of power over me, you condescending fuck.
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2009, 10:42:59 PM »
I'll post what I want.
As if you have any kind of power over me, you condescending fuck.

Thanks for the compliment. I've seen 5 posts from you today, none with any substance, all condescending

If you like trolling, i'd rather see you do it over at youtube with the other idiot kids.

So this one's for you:


MrBogosity

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2009, 10:44:47 PM »
The difference is, we ended up with a LOT more evidence for meteorites than badly-remembered things and blurry pictures.

Did you know in Portugal about 100 years ago, something like 17,000 people saw the sun cleave in two and fall out of the sky?

Travis Retriever

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2009, 11:01:50 PM »
If you like trolling, i'd rather see you do it over at youtube with the other idiot kids.

So this one's for you:

Projection much?
Also, I'd like to know where you're coming from with your Alien shit, sadly, I can't seem to fit my head that far up my ass.

PS:  Eat shit and die.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 11:06:23 PM by surhotchaperchlorome »
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2009, 11:08:50 PM »
The difference is, we ended up with a LOT more evidence for meteorites than badly-remembered things and blurry pictures.

Is that what you think all the evidence consists of?

And that's besides the point anyways. The fact that we did find more evidence for meteorites doesn't mean that the UFO phenomenon is invalid untill the day we find a flying saucer and aliens (which we apparently did in 1947, btw). You're simply dismissive of it for the same reasons those skeptics 300 years ago were... and from what i've seen you're not very well informed about the subject either, yet you have a very strong opinion about it.

Just another case of 'Investigation by Proclamation', the trademark of the skeptibunker.

Quote
Did you know in Portugal about 100 years ago, something like 17,000 people saw the sun cleave in two and fall out of the sky?

Well, i never heard of that specific event, unless you're referring to the Fatima event, which as far as i know has never been conclusively explained. Then again, i never really looked at it, since it somehow doesn't interest me too much. What we can say about this event however is:

1: something happened
2: People interpreted in their own individual way
3: we don't know what exactly happened

2 doesn't make 1 untrue however, nor does it provide a satisfactory explanatin for the whole event.




From Wiki:

The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) is an alleged miraculous event witnessed by as many as 100,000 people on 13 October 1917 in the Cova da Iria fields near Fátima, Portugal. Those in attendance had assembled to observe what the Portuguese secular newspapers had been ridiculing for months as the absurd claim of three shepherd children that a miracle was going to occur at high-noon in the Cova da Iria on October 13, 1917. [1]

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky.[2] It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds.[2] The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern,[2] frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world.[3] Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry."[4]

Estimates of the number of witnesses range from 30,000-40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século,[5] to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra,[6] both of whom were present that day.[7]

The miracle was attributed by believers to Our Lady of Fátima, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young shepherd children in 1917, as having been predicted by the three children on 13 July,[8] 19 August,[9] and 13 September[10] 1917. The children reported that the Lady had promised them that she would on 13 October reveal her identity to them[11] and provide a miracle "so that all may believe."[12]

According to these reports, the miracle of the sun lasted approximately ten minutes.[13] The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.[14]




De Marchi claims that the prediction of an unspecified "miracle", the abrupt beginning and end of the alleged miracle of the sun, the varied religious backgrounds of the observers, the sheer numbers of people present, and the lack of any known scientific causative factor make a mass hallucination unlikely.[23] That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometers away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria, according to De Marchi.[23]

Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors. Others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[24] [25] No scientific accounts exist of any unusual solar or astronomic activity during the time the sun was reported to have "danced", and there are no witness reports of any unusual solar phenomenon further than forty miles out from Cova da Iria.[26]

Pio Scatizzi, S.J. describes events of Fátima and concludes

The ... solar phenomena were not observed in any observatory. Impossible that they should escape notice of so many astronomers and indeed the other inhabitants of the hemisphere… there is no question of an astronomical or meteorological event phenomenon …Either all the observers in Fátima were collectively deceived and erred in their testimony, or we must suppose an extra-natural intervention.[27]

Steuart Campbell, writing for the 1989 edition of Journal of Meteorology, postulated that a cloud of stratospheric dust changed the appearance of the sun on 13 October, making it easy to look at, and causing it to appear yellow, blue, and violet and to spin. In support of his hypothesis, Mr. Campbell reports that a blue and reddened sun was reported in China as documented in 1983.[28]

 
A parhelion in rainbow colors, photographed in 2005.Joe Nickell, a skeptic and investigator of paranormal phenomena, claims that the position of the phenomenon, as described by the various witnesses, is at the wrong azimuth and elevation to have been the sun.[29] He suggests the cause may have been a sundog. Sometimes referred to as a parhelion or "mock sun", a sundog is a relatively common atmospheric optical phenomenon associated with the reflection/refraction of sunlight by the numerous small ice crystals that make up cirrus or cirrostratus clouds. A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the "dancing sun". Nickell suggests an explanation for this and other similar phenomena may lie in temporary retinal distortion, caused by staring at the intense light and/or by the effect of darting the eyes to and fro so as to avoid completely fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage and movement). Nickell concludes that there was

likely a combination of factors, including optical and meteorological phenomena (the sun being seen through thin clouds, causing it to appear as a silver disc; an alteration in the density of the passing clouds, so that the sun would alternatively brighten and dim, thus appearing to advance and recede; dust or moisture droplets in the atmosphere, imparting a variety of colors to sunlight; and/or other phenomena).

Paul Simons, in an article entitled "Weather Secrets of Miracle at Fátima", states that he believes it possible that some of the optical effects at Fatima may have been caused by a cloud of dust from the Sahara.[30]

Kevin McClure claims that the crowd at Cova da Iria may have been expecting to see signs in the sun, as similar phenomena had been reported in the weeks leading up to the miracle. On this basis he believes that the crowd saw what it wanted to see. But it has been objected that McClure's account fails to explain similar reports of people miles away, who by their own testimony were not even thinking of the event at the time, or the sudden drying of people's sodden, rain-soaked clothes. Kevin McClure stated that he had never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts of a case in any of the research he had done in the previous ten years, although he has not explicitly stated what these contradictions were. [31]

Leo Madigan believes that the various witness reports of a miracle are accurate, however he alleges inconsistency of witnesses, and suggests that astonishment, fear, exaltation and imagination must have played roles in both the observing and the retelling. Madigan likens the experiences to prayer, and considers that the spiritual nature of the phenomenon explains what he describes as the inconsistency of the witnesses.[32]

Author Lisa Schwebel claims that the event was a supernatural extra-sensory phenomenon. Schwebel notes that the solar phenomenon reported at Fátima is not unique - there have been several reported cases of high pitched religious gatherings culminating in the sudden and mysterious appearance of lights in the sky.[33]

It has been argued that the Fátima phenomenon and many UFO sights share a common cause,[34] or even that the phenomenon was an alien craft.[35] see main article: The Fatima UFO Hypothesis

Many years after the events in question, Stanley L. Jaki, a professor of physics at Seton Hall University, New Jersey, Benedictine priest and author of a number of books reconciling science and Catholicism, proposed a unique theory about the supposed miracle. Jaki believes that the event was natural and meteorological in nature, but that the fact the event occurred at the exact time predicted was a miracle.[36]

The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, papal legate Cardinal Tedeschini told the million gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[37]
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 06:21:41 AM by JaquesPlafond »

MrBogosity

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2009, 11:12:26 PM »
A post here was reported to the moderators, but it doesn't break Da Rules. Learn the rules, people, and grow a thick skin.

JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2009, 11:24:28 PM »
Ok will do...

Umm so did you actually mean Fatima?

MrBogosity

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2009, 06:46:57 AM »
Yes, I was referring to the Fatima "miracle." Can we all agree that, although they must have seen SOMETHING, it was NOT the sun cleaving in two?

(And actually, Joe Nickell has a pretty solid explanation for what it might have been.)

JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2009, 11:14:53 AM »
Yes, I was referring to the Fatima "miracle." Can we all agree that, although they must have seen SOMETHING, it was NOT the sun cleaving in two?

(And actually, Joe Nickell has a pretty solid explanation for what it might have been.)

Yah, we can agree on that much.

I don't know about Joe NIckells' 'explanation' though. I highly doubt that a sundog would get the panties of 100.000 people in a knot. But for a pathological skeptic, this kind of 'explanation' works. I'm all for investigating anomalous phenomena in a scientific way, but from what i know about Nickel, i'm not going to trust anything he says, exactly because it's far from scientific. For an example of his methods, you can have a look here: Joe Nickel and Roswell. He's still peddling the latest airforce 'explanation' for Roswell (the fourth, i think), which has been thoroughly debunked.

11mc22

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2009, 05:14:12 PM »
Yah, we can agree on that much.

I don't know about Joe NIckells' 'explanation' though. I highly doubt that a sundog would get the panties of 100.000 people in a knot.

I've been to places like Medjugorje and trust me, even in this modern day and age the people there are willing to believe that water coming out of a crack in a bronze statue is a miracle
No matter how many people see it and believe it to be true its not always what they want it to be.

Thousands of people thought Uri Geller was for real

Were they right?

11mc22

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2009, 05:23:55 PM »
Is that so?

Investigation by proclamation, as they say. One helluva easy way to nullify all available data, including video, radar, multiple corroborating witness testimony, etc.

Could you tell me what this object, photographed, filmed, showing up on 2 F16 radars and observed by literally thousands of people in Belgium in the early 90s is?





I'm just going to throw a website in here

http://skepticreport.com/sr/?p=162

And WIKI gives this one. You probably have seen it though

http://gmh.chez-alice.fr/RLT/BUW-RLT-10-2008.pdf


JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2009, 10:41:36 AM »
And here's a critical look at Marc Hallet's report:

http://www.cohenufo.org/analyhalletarticle1.htm

And if you're serious about looking into the Belgian events (beyond having a look at Wikipedia and linking a skeptical article), have a look here:

http://ufologie.net/htm/belgium.htm


I just found this video, which kindof superficially deals with the Belgian wave:

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/11358/Belgium_Ufo_Triangle_1989/

At a certain point they have some 'skeptics' on (the usual suspects: McGaha and Schermer), and all they do is make dumb blanket statements, whilst showing silly pictures of aliens. That to me sums it up for those skeptics.

In fact i think Phill Klass does a good job of conveying the agenda of his ilk. He made this statement after familiarizing himself with the airforce's 'theory' of the aliens that were reportedly sighted by several witnesses at the Roswell crash. The Airforce claims that what those witnesses saw were actually some sort of crash test dummies, used for parachute tests. The one niggle is that those dummies only came into use a decade later, in the 50's.

So even UFO-skeptic Phil Klass doesn't believe that story, and makes the following remark:

"It is not a strong enough theory to try to explain some of the statements of the quote-unquote key witnesses," Klass said. "In my opinion, this report will not convince any flying saucer believers, and in fact, I suspect they will accuse the Air Force of trying to cover up and divert attention from the crashed saucer."

And that's a dead giveaway: the point is not to factually find out what happened in Roswell, but to concoct 'theories' that convince 'flying saucer believers'. (source)


Here's some of the footage shot of the Belgian UFO. Does it support Leclet's helicopter theory? Does the picture i posted in a previous post support it? Do the picture and the footage show the same object?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpGc8w5Wu0Y

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 02:43:56 PM by JaquesPlafond »

JaquesPlafond

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Re: UFOs and Aliens
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2009, 03:02:25 PM »
I've been to places like Medjugorje and trust me, even in this modern day and age the people there are willing to believe that water coming out of a crack in a bronze statue is a miracle
No matter how many people see it and believe it to be true its not always what they want it to be.

Thousands of people thought Uri Geller was for real

Were they right?


So what's your point? That people can be easily fooled? Sure, i'll give you that, but what if there is actually an anomalous phenomenon out there, wouldn't people be reporting on it? And yes, people believe rediculous things (religion anyone?). Personally, i'm not too interested in the whole Fatima thing though, because i think there are much better cases.