Unnamed(?) logical fallacies

Started by MrBogosity, September 24, 2009, 04:12:10 PM

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This definitely needs to be one: the Opinion Card.

Here's tons of evidence showing evolution to be true. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we were created 6000 years ago is just as valid!"

Here's tons of evidence showing Minimum Wage to be harmful to low-income workers. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we need a guaranteed living wage is just as valid!"

Or any time someone holds on to a completely terrible viewpoint with, "It's just my opinion."

I remember in elementary school being taught the difference between fact and opinion. Seems like they don't teach that anymore. And what's funny is, I specifically remember having no difficulty telling the two apart while wondering why all my classmates had trouble. Is it really THAT difficult?

January 05, 2014, 10:30:04 AM #316 Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 09:56:36 PM by Travis Retriever
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 05, 2014, 10:14:39 AM
This definitely needs to be one: the Opinion Card.

Here's tons of evidence showing evolution to be true. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we were created 6000 years ago is just as valid!"

Here's tons of evidence showing Minimum Wage to be harmful to low-income workers. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we need a guaranteed living wage is just as valid!"

Or any time someone holds on to a completely terrible viewpoint with, "It's just my opinion."

I remember in elementary school being taught the difference between fact and opinion. Seems like they don't teach that anymore. And what's funny is, I specifically remember having no difficulty telling the two apart while wondering why all my classmates had trouble. Is it really THAT difficult?
YES! Thank you so much for adding this! And, as statist fallacies wiki has pointed out:
http://v.i4031.net/StatistFallacies/AgreeToDisagree

And yeah, I was home schooled during that time but I remember being taught it depends on how it was phrased--"I feel/think" vs "It is/does" being opinion/fact respectively.  Not sure if that's true though.
And of course using Google: "define opinion/fact" in two searches gives each.  One is indisputable in the case, the other a viewpoint or judgement formed about something not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.  I'll leave it up to the reader to guess which one is which. :P
It's like we always say, dictionary.com or even just Google is but mere keystrokes away.  There is no excuse for not knowing your terms.
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

Quote from: T dog on January 05, 2014, 10:30:04 AM
And yeah, I was home schooled during that time but I remember being taught it depends on how it was phrased--"I feel/think" vs "It is/does" being opinion/fact respectively.  Not sure if that's true though.

Not really. "I feel gravity exists" doesn't suddenly make gravity an opinion. Gravity exists; that is a fact. I think gravity is too strong and I'd like to live on a planet with slightly lower gravity; that is opinion.

I blame the courts for a lot of this. They put someone who's an expert in the field to deliver his "opinion." Ken Miller gave his "opinion" on evolution in the Dover trial. Sorry, no. He gave FACTS. Independently verified facts. Nothing about his testimony was opinion.

Quote from: MrBogosity on January 05, 2014, 11:06:15 AM
Not really. "I feel gravity exists" doesn't suddenly make gravity an opinion. Gravity exists; that is a fact. I think gravity is too strong and I'd like to live on a planet with slightly lower gravity; that is opinion.

I blame the courts for a lot of this. They put someone who's an expert in the field to deliver his "opinion." Ken Miller gave his "opinion" on evolution in the Dover trial. Sorry, no. He gave FACTS. Independently verified facts. Nothing about his testimony was opinion.
Well as I was originally going to post--that was just what I was taught and even then it didn't sit with me well. :P  Hence me looking up and posting the definitions via Google in my above post. :P  And yeah, it was that reasoning in your post that made me suspicious of how it was presented in the material we had available to us.
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

Quote from: MrBogosity on January 05, 2014, 10:14:39 AM
This definitely needs to be one: the Opinion Card.

Here's tons of evidence showing evolution to be true. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we were created 6000 years ago is just as valid!"

Here's tons of evidence showing Minimum Wage to be harmful to low-income workers. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we need a guaranteed living wage is just as valid!"

Or any time someone holds on to a completely terrible viewpoint with, "It's just my opinion."

I remember in elementary school being taught the difference between fact and opinion. Seems like they don't teach that anymore. And what's funny is, I specifically remember having no difficulty telling the two apart while wondering why all my classmates had trouble. Is it really THAT difficult?

And hopefully, the opinion is based on facts. Come to think of it, when I was in elementary school - or maybe it was middle school - we were taught the difference between facts, a VALID opinion (one where you evaluate facts and come to a conclusion) and an INVALID opinion (one where you pull bogons out of the ether).

Quote from: dallen68 on January 05, 2014, 12:19:18 PM
And hopefully, the opinion is based on facts. Come to think of it, when I was in elementary school - or maybe it was middle school - we were taught the difference between facts, a VALID opinion (one where you evaluate facts and come to a conclusion) and an INVALID opinion (one where you pull bogons out of the ether).

That's the thing though: opinions can't be valid or invalid. "I like pie" is an opinion; there's no sense of validity one way or the other about it. If you have to ask whether it's invalid or untrue or whatever, you're not dealing with an opinion.

Quote from: MrBogosity on January 05, 2014, 10:14:39 AM
This definitely needs to be one: the Opinion Card.

Here's tons of evidence showing evolution to be true. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we were created 6000 years ago is just as valid!"

Here's tons of evidence showing Minimum Wage to be harmful to low-income workers. "Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion that we need a guaranteed living wage is just as valid!"

Or any time someone holds on to a completely terrible viewpoint with, "It's just my opinion."

I remember in elementary school being taught the difference between fact and opinion. Seems like they don't teach that anymore. And what's funny is, I specifically remember having no difficulty telling the two apart while wondering why all my classmates had trouble. Is it really THAT difficult?
Related to this are deflections like after being called out on bullshit they'll say something like:  "Hey! I'm just asking questions!" or "it's just the internet lulz. Don't take it seriously."
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

Quote from: T dog on January 06, 2014, 12:07:13 PM
Related to this are deflections like after being called out on bullshit they'll say something like:  "Hey! I'm just asking questions!" or "it's just the internet lulz. Don't take it seriously."

That's basically Pulling a Lindy. They're asking questions without being receptive to the answers.

January 07, 2014, 09:19:06 AM #323 Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 09:29:35 AM by T dog
Quote from: MrBogosity on January 06, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
That's basically Pulling a Lindy. They're asking questions without being receptive to the answers.
Eh, not really.  When they ask a bullshit question where they don't think there is an answer to is when they pull the a Lindy; as your own description of it said. 
Let's say they ask a loaded question (e.g. "Have libertarians stopped supporting slavery?") or pull a Lindy. It's when they evade and dodge being called out on either using the "BUT I"M JUST ASKING QUESTIONS!"/"It's just the internet lulz.  Don't take it seriously." that I'm talking about.
Basically, an attempt to hide behind a lame excuse/cover their ass.  Like when someone pulls a Lindy, is called out on their bullshit and say, "Well, that's just your/my opinion."
Hence why I said it was related to the opinion card.
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

Quote from: T dog on January 07, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
Let's say they ask a loaded question (e.g. "Have libertarians stopped supporting slavery?") or pull a Lindy. It's when they evade and dodge being called out on either using the "BUT I"M JUST ASKING QUESTIONS!"/"It's just the internet lulz.  Don't take it seriously." that I'm talking about.

But just like when they pull a Lindy, they're doing it so they don't have to deal with the fact that the question has actually been answered.

True.
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537

Or when they pretend the question hasn't been answered because they don't "like" the answer.

I was talking on Facebook with tnu and we agreed this one should be a fallacy:

You're talking to someone about something paranormal or whatever, and they tell you to be open-minded. When you give them your refutation, they respond dismissively with, "Oh, there you go again!" or even hostility: "Why do you have to keep attacking my beliefs?" So, the skeptic has to be open-minded that they might be right, but THEY don't have to be open-minded that they might be WRONG.

I'll do some research; this is so common it HAS to be a listed fallacy somewhere. If not, I guess we'll add it as the Open-Minded Fallacy.

Quote from: MrBogosity on January 08, 2014, 07:12:08 AM
I was talking on Facebook with tnu and we agreed this one should be a fallacy:

You're talking to someone about something paranormal or whatever, and they tell you to be open-minded. When you give them your refutation, they respond dismissively with, "Oh, there you go again!" or even hostility: "Why do you have to keep attacking my beliefs?" So, the skeptic has to be open-minded that they might be right, but THEY don't have to be open-minded that they might be WRONG.

I'll do some research; this is so common it HAS to be a listed fallacy somewhere. If not, I guess we'll add it as the Open-Minded Fallacy.

Back in 2009, QualiaSoup did a great video on this. He didn't give the fallacy a name, but he did a great job refuting that bullshit.

[yt]T69TOuqaqXI[/yt]

Quote from: MrBogosity on January 08, 2014, 07:12:08 AM
I was talking on Facebook with tnu and we agreed this one should be a fallacy:

You're talking to someone about something paranormal or whatever, and they tell you to be open-minded. When you give them your refutation, they respond dismissively with, "Oh, there you go again!" or even hostility: "Why do you have to keep attacking my beliefs?" So, the skeptic has to be open-minded that they might be right, but THEY don't have to be open-minded that they might be WRONG.

I'll do some research; this is so common it HAS to be a listed fallacy somewhere. If not, I guess we'll add it as the Open-Minded Fallacy.
Sounds like a winner to me!  You should be open minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out.
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537