Author Topic: Fav quotes  (Read 1141668 times)

Dukect45

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4815 on: May 15, 2015, 02:37:37 AM »
The video I was talking about in the hangout yesterday


And I ask the people of the forum the question of this video should video games based in WW2 or any other war try to be historically accurate

MrBogosity

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4816 on: May 15, 2015, 06:42:43 AM »
I view it the way I view science accuracy in TV and movies: if it gets in the way of the narrative, drama, or character development, then forget it. Otherwise, there's no reason not to, it'll make the product better as a result, and can even serve as a source of inspiration!

AdeptusHereticus

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4817 on: May 15, 2015, 10:10:46 AM »
I view it the way I view science accuracy in TV and movies: if it gets in the way of the narrative, drama, or character development, then forget it. Otherwise, there's no reason not to, it'll make the product better as a result, and can even serve as a source of inspiration!

Following on that logic can lead to really bad excuses, especially since a lot of writers don't even bother to consider the logical implications of the different elements of their story before adding something new. They will literally make everything up. I know a lot of people don't think it's a big deal, and that since it's a so called "creative process", writers can do what the hell they want, but I disagree. I see no logical reason to not do it. In fact, there are no differences between writing a character and describing the physics involved in a scene because in each case, you measure the work with reality. What writers are good at usually is making you forget about what is not the drama, but it is just a way of hiding the dumpster by flashing bright lights at you.

Now, about the video, I mostly agree with the guy, although he is wrong on several counts about tanks in WWII and what form tank games should adopt.
First, some people like this war because it was the only one where tanks where actually the main firepower on land. You could not win a war without them. Before WWII, you could. After WWII, you could. But during that period, you needed big guns mounted on impenetrable steel. That makes this war very unique in the way tanks worked and were developped. There are no comparable historical period in that sense. So, no : No Cybertron tank games. Sorry dude.

Another thing is the tanks paint jobs. There were no standard for paint jobs at the time. The paint job was left to the discretion of the crew. There were suggestions I imagine, because camouflage was pretty much unique to each nations (and still is weirdly enough), but the crew was pretty much trusted to takie care of it. The result was that the emblems varied a lot and the nation was not always signaled in the same way. Not every german tank crew would choose to paint a swastika on their ride. In fact, knowing what I know about the Heer, I would guess that most crew would deliberately avoid this symbol, and I personnaly never saw a historical photograph of a german tank with a swastika on it. I don't know if it is because SS tanks are often left out ... who knows. Still, it's not historically inaccurate to represent a WWII tank with no swastika on the side. The luftwaffe might have had a different global stance about that ...

And this leads me to another point to counterbalance my critique : the comment of Wargaming on their stance on historical accuracy. I think he is correct to call them out on that. No because of the emblems ... Well, I would say that there might be some wiggle room, but anyway there was another item that prove their dishonesty. In the past they implemented a new map called Belogorsk 19. It was called after a goulag built near the town of Belogorsk. Well there were people who felt "offended" by the fact that they would do that. And they back down. They renamed the map Severogorsk. They made a similar statement about historical accuracy after they renamed the map, which sounded quite ridiculous frankly ... So, I guess anyone can imagine what would happen if Auschwitz or Dachau was implemented in any WWII game ...

MrBogosity

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4818 on: May 15, 2015, 10:15:39 AM »
Following on that logic can lead to really bad excuses, especially since a lot of writers don't even bother to consider the logical implications of the different elements of their story before adding something new.

Well, that's just bad writing, and that'll come through no matter what.

Quote
They will literally make everything up. I know a lot of people don't think it's a big deal, and that since it's a so called "creative process", writers can do what the hell they want, but I disagree. I see no logical reason to not do it.

I don't think you get what I mean. I don't mean "Do whatever you want and use Real Science elsewhere." I mean, "Look at how the science works, think it through, and only deviate from it when you absolutely have to."

AdeptusHereticus

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4819 on: May 15, 2015, 11:52:33 AM »
I don't think you get what I mean. I don't mean "Do whatever you want and use Real Science elsewhere." I mean, "Look at how the science works, think it through, and only deviate from it when you absolutely have to."

I think I get it, but narrative, drama and character development involve enough subjectivity to allow anyone to justify anything with that sentence. "absolutely having to" is so broad of a term ... To be clear, I don't know exactly what you have in mind, I'm arguing about the way you say it. Does that mean that "absolutely having to" for you is related to exceptions by convention, like sci-fi as an example, who can hypothesize about  the fringe of modern science and what's beyond ?

MrBogosity

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4820 on: May 15, 2015, 02:29:44 PM »
I think I get it, but narrative, drama and character development involve enough subjectivity to allow anyone to justify anything with that sentence. "absolutely having to" is so broad of a term ... To be clear, I don't know exactly what you have in mind, I'm arguing about the way you say it. Does that mean that "absolutely having to" for you is related to exceptions by convention, like sci-fi as an example, who can hypothesize about  the fringe of modern science and what's beyond ?

Let's take something simple: you have a science-fiction show set in the near future where there's a moonbase. People call/Skype/whatever friends on the moon from Earth and vice-versa.

We know from the Apollo footage that, when Mission Control spoke to the astronauts, there was a ~3 second delay before the astronauts responded, then Mission Control responded immediately, then another ~3 second delay for the response. From the point of view of the astronauts, it would have been the opposite: they responded to Mission Control and had to wait ~3 seconds for the reply.

This is due to unavoidable physics. You absolutely cannot get rid of this delay without developing faster-than-light communications, which physics tells us is impossible.

But imagine a TV episode where this happens! All those gaps of ~3 seconds getting in the way of the timing and drama? Would you really blame someone for cutting that out and having responses be instantaneous?

Ibrahim90

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4821 on: May 15, 2015, 02:40:37 PM »
I view it the way I view science accuracy in TV and movies: if it gets in the way of the narrative, drama, or character development, then forget it. Otherwise, there's no reason not to, it'll make the product better as a result, and can even serve as a source of inspiration!

you can only take that part so far, before you get this:

"All you guys complaining about the possibility of guy on guy relationships...you're also denying us girl on girl.  Works both ways if you know what I mean"

-Jesse Cox

MrBogosity

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4822 on: May 15, 2015, 03:16:06 PM »
you can only take that part so far, before you get this:

That has nothing to do with what I posted. That's just lazy writing/not caring, and no amount of conformity to science can fix that.

AdeptusHereticus

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4823 on: May 15, 2015, 04:48:42 PM »
Let's take something simple: you have a science-fiction show set in the near future where there's a moonbase. People call/Skype/whatever friends on the moon from Earth and vice-versa.

We know from the Apollo footage that, when Mission Control spoke to the astronauts, there was a ~3 second delay before the astronauts responded, then Mission Control responded immediately, then another ~3 second delay for the response. From the point of view of the astronauts, it would have been the opposite: they responded to Mission Control and had to wait ~3 seconds for the reply.

This is due to unavoidable physics. You absolutely cannot get rid of this delay without developing faster-than-light communications, which physics tells us is impossible.

But imagine a TV episode where this happens! All those gaps of ~3 seconds getting in the way of the timing and drama? Would you really blame someone for cutting that out and having responses be instantaneous?

Well, If I am to be completely honest, not waiting a few seconds would be a shame. There is always room for editing of course but there are several options between the all and the nothing. I would also argue that if the writer includes a base on the moon, then the delay is de facto a part of the drama and the narrative. That's just one of those logical implications that one have to consider and at least describe in some way when building the story. In much the same way car crashes often don't show the head of the driver being destroyed by the truck he rear ended, but still show the remains of the car and the blood, there are solutions to show that the delay exists, as it should, without asking the viewer to wait too long if it's considered undesirable. Some of those solutions are well known : The delay can be cut in half, or a scene at another location can be shown inbetween responses ...

Ibrahim90

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4824 on: May 15, 2015, 05:12:06 PM »
That has nothing to do with what I posted. That's just lazy writing/not caring, and no amount of conformity to science can fix that.

Oh, but it does--even though you are right to say that it is essentially lazy writing:

Shepard is supposed to have been killed, and crashed into a planet roughly Earth's size. somehow, his body is intact (no explanation given: sorry, a helmet won't save your brain here), in spite of science telling us that the gravity of the planet guarantees that the body would fall really fast through an atmosphere of Ammonia and Methane--with obvious consequences.

so it's lazy in that no explanation is given, and it disregards science, by ignoring what the planet ought to have done to the corpse, making his body's preservation even more of a WTF, and the lack of explanation even more blatant. it's like gasoline on the fire of shitty writing.

I mean, I agree with you that you have to do this at times: I'm just arguing that it has its limits...
"All you guys complaining about the possibility of guy on guy relationships...you're also denying us girl on girl.  Works both ways if you know what I mean"

-Jesse Cox

MrBogosity

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4825 on: May 15, 2015, 06:40:29 PM »
so it's lazy in that no explanation is given, and it disregards science, by ignoring what the planet ought to have done to the corpse, making his body's preservation even more of a WTF, and the lack of explanation even more blatant. it's like gasoline on the fire of shitty writing.

Also known as "retconning."

evensgrey

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4826 on: May 16, 2015, 10:36:18 AM »
Let's take something simple: you have a science-fiction show set in the near future where there's a moonbase. People call/Skype/whatever friends on the moon from Earth and vice-versa.

We know from the Apollo footage that, when Mission Control spoke to the astronauts, there was a ~3 second delay before the astronauts responded, then Mission Control responded immediately, then another ~3 second delay for the response. From the point of view of the astronauts, it would have been the opposite: they responded to Mission Control and had to wait ~3 seconds for the reply.

This is due to unavoidable physics. You absolutely cannot get rid of this delay without developing faster-than-light communications, which physics tells us is impossible.

But imagine a TV episode where this happens! All those gaps of ~3 seconds getting in the way of the timing and drama? Would you really blame someone for cutting that out and having responses be instantaneous?

In 2001, there's a scene of a TV interview done with the crew of Bowman and Poole before HAL's bad programming sends him homicidal.  Since the interview isn't being broadcast in realtime, the intro mentions that they've edited out all the pauses for lightspeed.  Like everything else in the film, a superb explanation skillfully placed for not having the communications delays actually show up.  (Yes, the ending as shown doesn't make any sense at all.  It all does make sense if you read the second book.)

evensgrey

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4827 on: May 16, 2015, 11:18:16 AM »
Also known as "retconning."

No it isn't.  You can't retcon the events of a story inside the SAME story, and in a true reconning you create a new explanation for the previous events by adding some new, previously unknown information (like when Jean Grey turned out to not to be Phoenix after all, but was actually the template used to create Phoenix and Jean got shunted off to heal up in a cosmic coma).

Dallas Wildman

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4828 on: May 17, 2015, 01:21:43 PM »
Working every day to expose the terrible price we pay for government.

Travis Retriever

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Re: Fav quotes
« Reply #4829 on: May 17, 2015, 08:23:38 PM »
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—'No. You move.'"
-Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man 537