The Wage Gap, you shitlordz !

[AdeptusHereticus]

But seriously, I have a question for US residents : Is the number given for the wage gap in the US really about the average full time revenue or is it a simplification ?

Why do I ask ? Well, to get about the same number with France statistics, we need to input ALL workers. In other words, when we compare the difference between men and women in France, we use full time workers, AND part time workers, and that gives us a difference of around 25%. When we take part time workers out of the equation, the difference is only 11%. So women working full time would make 89 cents on mens euro so to speak, not accounting for other parameters.

Do women make such different choices from one western country to another ? I always assumed that it should be roughly the same.

Your thoughts ?

[Altimadark]

The number given for the wage gap is a huge simplification. More accurately, it's a aggregate of all Men's and Women's salaries. When you account for things such as education, experience, hours worked, salary negotiations, etc, the wage gap all but disappears (possibly within statistical noise).

A 2009 study did research into the cause of the Gender Wage Gap among MBAs, and determined that, simply put, men and women make different education/work/career choices. I speculate this is largely an unintended consequence of the positive discrimination women receive in Western society (Men are boorish, Women are delicate).

[AnCap Dave]

Here's several links talking about the gender wage gap and how it's bullshit:

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html
http://money.howstuffworks.com/gender-gap1.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidgreen/9666597/The_gender_pay_gap_does_not_exist/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-gender-wage-gap-is-a-myth-2012-07-26
http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-the-gender-pay-gap-is-just-a-myth-2011-3?op=1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html
http://oratorasaurus.tumblr.com/post/41131660349/the-so-called-pay-gap
http://tgjesusfreak.tumblr.com/post/59991585178
http://wwww.examiner.com/x-22884-Canada-Politics-Examiner~y2010m2d22-Gender-pay-gap-is-not-what-activists-claim
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/vickiwoods/7957186/Sorry-ladies-Im-not-worried-about-wage-gaps.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22Sommers.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_wage_gap_myth.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa3pKN3XUKM&feature=youtu.be
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/business/economy/06women.html?_r=2
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/biggest-shock-fridays-payroll-report-sorry-men
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/07/share-of-men-in-labor-force-at-all-time-low/?src=recg
http://www.businessinsider.com/women-in-tech-make-more-money-and-land-better-jobs-than-men-20
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedType=R
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10630664
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Young-Women-Earn-More-159818705.html
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/03/14/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/http://www.womenintechnology.co.uk/news/young-women-earn-more-than-men%E2%80%94news-800761492
http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2011/10/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-in-uk/http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedTy%E2%80%A6
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/03/15/optout.revolution/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23413243
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/06/13/dads.work/index.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-04-equal-parenting_N.htm
http://www.sify.com/news/women-stay-away-from-math-out-of-their-own-free-choice-news-scitech-kk1lubiiiee.html
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/women_science_no_discrimination_says_cornell_study-75984
http://social.dol.gov/blog/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/
http://www.payscale.com/career-news/2009/12/do-men-or-women-choose-majors-to-maximize-income

[Lord T Hawkeye]

There's another reason.

Say you have a business man who makes 120k and his wife is a stay at home mom.  Well, their stats count her as making no income which is really complete nonsense as that 120k is actually hers just as much as it is his.

[MrBogosity]

There's another reason.

Say you have a business man who makes 120k and his wife is a stay at home mom.  Well, their stats count her as making no income which is really complete nonsense as that 120k is actually hers just as much as it is his.

Actually, the stats I've seen only count women in the workforce. The claim is that women make less money than men for doing the same job.

Which raises one obvious question: if that were true, why would anyone EVER hire men?

One thing disturbs me about this: to get ahead--to get promotions and raises, or moving to a better job--involves taking risks. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that there is absolutely no gender discrimination in our society whatsoever, but people THINK there is. That means that women will evaluate their risk/benefit ratio differently: if they think there's discrimination, they'll perceive there being less of a chance to benefit for the risk they'll take, making them less likely to take the risk, meaning they WON'T get the promotion or the raise or move to the betterjob!

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. By harping on about all this gender inequality in employment WHICH THERE IS NO GOOD EVIDENCE FOR, they're actually doing a DISSERVICE to women!

[AdeptusHereticus]

To Altidamark and AnCap Dave :

I don't understand your answers. I'm not asking how to explain the difference in the average annual revenue between the genders, I'm wondering why the difference is not roughly the same between the US and France. As I said, for full time workers, the difference is 11% in France.
I was hoping someone would have interesting things to say about that. I would compare the proportion of each gender for different diplomas but I didn't find a useful french source yet. Weirdly enough, it seems that french people have a tendency to present this kind of data by lumping different fields together in categories like "sciences of nature and life", "economics and management" ...

I know that the natality is not low enough to create a huge difference, being near 2 children per woman.

So yeah, that's where I am right now ...

[AdeptusHereticus]

One thing disturbs me about this: to get ahead--to get promotions and raises, or moving to a better job--involves taking risks. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that there is absolutely no gender discrimination in our society whatsoever, but people THINK there is. That means that women will evaluate their risk/benefit ratio differently: if they think there's discrimination, they'll perceive there being less of a chance to benefit for the risk they'll take, making them less likely to take the risk, meaning they WON'T get the promotion or the raise or move to the betterjob!

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. By harping on about all this gender inequality in employment WHICH THERE IS NO GOOD EVIDENCE FOR, they're actually doing a DISSERVICE to women!

Yeah good point. I always wondered about this effect in politics as a general rule. Political parties tend to fabricate a narrative where some demographic is in need of help and they are the solution. How much effect does it have on the agency of their voters ?

Well, I digress ...

[AdeptusHereticus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM
Maddox just uploaded a nice video about this very subject.

None of his sources seems to imply that the figure is obtained only by accounting for full time workers ...
Is it possible that figures for the US and France are actually closer that I thought ? If that's the case, why a lot of people claim that the raw figure of about 77% is only accounting for full time workers ? I mean, it would be a wierd false idea to go around since the reality is so much more useful in that case ...

[AdeptusHereticus]

Another point but very minor : A lot of people that I've seen talking about it claim that the figure corresponds ot the median wage, but it does not make a lot of sense, I always assume that they say median when they mean average and until now I had no reason to suspect that I was wrong but maybe my confusion comes, at least in part, from that assumption ... What do you think ?