Atheism vs. Agnosticism (and Penn Jillette)

[MrBogosity]

Let's kick this off with a discussion on atheism vs. agnosticism. I'll probably weigh in later, but to start things off I thought I'd show a video from Penn Jillette on the subject:

[yt-wide]EAF2NuAI9EU[/yt-wide]

He makes an interesting point. What do you all think?

[Tom S. Fox]

I didn't know Penn had his own YouTube channel. I subscribed to his videos now.
Anyway, YouTube is bitching around, so I can't watch it right now.
However, my opinion is that agnostics are atheists who don't want to take an unequivocal stand because they are too scared of being wrong.
They do not understand that being wrong is no shame, not wanting to admit to be wrong however is.

Edit: Also, The Two Percent Company - a blog you should read if you don't - wrote a good piece on the subject.

[Andy120290]

Anyway, YouTube is bitching around, so I can’t watch it right now.

So I am not the only one with problems with YouTube today? Every time I try to watch that video (and only that video, curiously), my browser goes on the verge of crashing. I will try again tommorrow.

Firstly, I am an atheist. Secondly, I always kind of believed that being an agnostic was like a wussy version of an atheist. An atheist might say, "There is no God." While an agnostic might say, "There might not be a God."

I am an atheist because no one has proven to me that there is truly a God or higher being. An agnostic might say that there is no proof that there is not a God. Of course that could be applied to a lot of arguements. I should not, for example, have to provide proof that the Tooth Fairy does not exist, it is just a fact we all accept.

I probably have more to say, but I am not always good at formulating my thoughts.

[Tom S. Fox]

I always kind of believed that being an agnostic was like a wussy version of an atheist.

This reminds me...


Anyway, I completely agree with you.

[Horizon]

It all depends on the definitions. Common definitions for atheism are "a lack of belief in a god" and "a belief that there is no god". They're both pretty much the same to me.
The way I see it almost all who call themselves atheist are agnostic atheists, meaning they don't claim to know that there is no god. I don't believe there is a person who truly is in the middle of theism and atheism, everyone is more or less leaning towards either side. Many people probably call themselves agnostic because the word 'atheist' seems too strong and possibly anti-religion (which of course it isn't).

If I have to categorize myself I guess I'm quite agnostic atheist. I find the god of the Bible as believable as pink unicorns but when it comes to a more deistic approach I can't really say anything.

[chrisch]

Note: I haven't seen Penn's video either, so I'm just responding to the posts above, NOT to Penn's video.


Hey all,

Might of course be that I'm too moderate for this Forum, but since this debate seems to be a bit one sided, let me jump in.

So your argument is that your an atheist and therefore not an agnostic. So it is fair for me to say that you are a gnostic? (like a-theist is a non theist, so is an a-gnostic a non gnostic)

Now lets dig up the definitions and look at your claim ...

Atheist: Someone who holds no believe in a God or Gods.
Agnostic: Someone who claims that they do not know or are unable to know whether God exists.

Therefore a gnostic is:
Someone who claims that they do know whether God exists.

A gnostic atheist is therefore: Someone who holds no believe on God and claims to KNOW GOD EXISTS.

This is a common misconception.

Theism and Atheism are about believe. Gnosticism and Agnosticism are about knowledge.

Of course most Atheists are also Agnostics and most Theists are Gnostic's, but there are also Agnostic Theists.


Mfg Chrisch

[MrBogosity]

Here are the five terms:

Gnostic atheist: Knowledge that there is no God
Agnostic atheist: Lack of belief in God
Agnostic: Belief that God is unknowable
Agnostic theist: Belief in God
Gnostic theist: Knowledge that God exists

Every atheist I know is an agnostic atheist. I believe every theist to be an agnostic theist, even though many would insist they were gnostic theists. (In other words, they may think they know, but there's no way they can.)

[Tom S. Fox]

According to this, I am an agnostic atheist.
And most theists I met on the internet are gnostic theists, because they "know" that god exists and call everyone stupid who denies his existence.
I say "deny" because a good many of them think atheists also know that god exists, but they just do not want to accept it.

Anyway, can you not just tell us what Penn says in the video as it does not seem to work for an indefinite period?

[MrBogosity]

According to this, I am an agnostic atheist.
And most theists I met on the internet are gnostic theists, because they "know" that god exists and call everyone stupid who denies his existence.
I say "deny" because a good many of them think atheists also know that god exists, but they just do not want to accept it.

Anyway, can you not just tell us what Penn says in the video as it does not seem to work for an indefinite period?

Strange, it's working for me.

Here's his question:

If God told you to kill your own son, would you do it?

If you answer "no," you're an atheist.

If you answer "yes," you're dangerous and need to be locked up.

[Andy120290]

Here's his question:

If God told you to kill your own son, would you do it?

If you answer "no," you're an atheist.

If you answer "yes," you're dangerous and need to be locked up.

If you answer "maybe," then you are an agnostic.

[Tom S. Fox]

Strange, it is still not working for me.

However, I agree with you, it is a good point, indeed.

Edit: This reminds me of this clever parable:

You start to wonder about what you might make yourself for dinner when suddenly you are startled by a loud gunshot, followed by what sounds like a body falling to the floor. Rather than getting the hell out of there you somewhat foolishly run to the other room to see what happened. Once there, you see your roommate standing there, arm outstretched, holding a still-smoking pistol pointed at what is now, apparently, a corpse.

Your roommate looks at you and says "Santa Claus did it."

Do you:

   1. Sincerely believe that your roommate is telling the actual truth?

   2. Decide that, because you didn't actually see your roommate fire the gun, you just can't know one way or another whether Santa did it?

   3. Consider your roommate a murderer, and the claim to be the rationalization of a mind that has snapped?

[Textra1]

If you answer "maybe," then you are an agnostic.

This is a common error. Gnosticism speaks to what you know, not what you believe. Some people presume that agnosticism is some middle ground between theism and atheism. There is no middle ground. An atheist is anyone who cannot answer the following question with a YES. Do you believe god(s) exist? It's not asking what you know, it's asking what you believe. If theism is a belief in god(s), then a-theism (a - meaning without or not) is a lack of that belief.

So your argument is that your an atheist and therefore not an agnostic. So it is fair for me to say that you are a gnostic? (like a-theist is a non theist, so is an a-gnostic a non gnostic)

Now lets dig up the definitions and look at your claim ...

Atheist: Someone who holds no believe in a God or Gods.
Agnostic: Someone who claims that they do not know or are unable to know whether God exists.

Therefore a gnostic is:
Someone who claims that they do know whether God exists.

A gnostic atheist is therefore: Someone who holds no believe on God and claims to KNOW GOD EXISTS.

This is a common misconception.

Theism and Atheism are about believe. Gnosticism and Agnosticism are about knowledge.

Of course most Atheists are also Agnostics and most Theists are Gnostic's, but there are also Agnostic Theists.


Mfg Chrisch

Great post. Many people commonly misunderstand that agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive terms. Few seem to understand that one can be a theist and be an agnostic or an atheist and an agnostic.

[Tom S. Fox]

Well, most people who call themselves agnostics don't know that.

[Textra1]

Well, most people who call themselves agnostics don't know that.

Indeed, which is why we need to correct them on that point.

[IceSage]

The evidence given before me shows that there is no active god. As far as we can observe, god doesn't exist.

However, I'd be more than happy if a "higher being" or entity existed. In fact, I HOPE there is one.

What does that make me? An Atheist, or Agnostic? I didn't say I believed in one, I just said I hope there is one and would be glad if there was.