Author Topic: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)  (Read 621 times)

Skm1091

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Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« on: March 02, 2018, 12:16:25 PM »
People of Bogosity, I have some intel that you will enjoy

Mysterious 9mm Machine Pistols, called the R9-Arms have been showing up in Europe. This story was ran a couple years ago. European authorities sent these to the US for tracing and no match was found. So it is extremely likely that this weapon is a black market design that is built in an illicit workshop and the markings are an attempt to increase it's selling power or to send authorities on a wild goose chase. 

TFB article

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/08/11/mystery-9mm-machine-pistol-seized-europe/

Forgotten Weapons

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-r9-arms-machine-pistol/

Wikipedia Entry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R9-Arms_submachine_gun

I have to admit. It actually doesn't look so bad.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 12:18:41 PM by Skm1091 »

evensgrey

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2018, 06:52:59 PM »
Interesting, this is the first I've heard of substantial manufacture of novel, illicit firearms in Europe.  Normally, the ease of access to mass-produced firearms on the black market would seem to eliminate this sort of private design.  Replicating a mass-produced design in clandestine manufacture also reduces the risk of the clandestine manufacture being detected when the produced guns inevitably fall into the hands of police and other law enforcement.

Oh, and your Wikipedia link is mangled.  The correct one is

R9-Arms_submachine_gun

Just use the part of the URL after the /wiki/ in the full URL inside the wiki tags, and always preview every post.  It saves a lot of trouble.

Skm1091

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2018, 01:15:15 AM »
Interesting, this is the first I've heard of substantial manufacture of novel, illicit firearms in Europe.  Normally, the ease of access to mass-produced firearms on the black market would seem to eliminate this sort of private design.  Replicating a mass-produced design in clandestine manufacture also reduces the risk of the clandestine manufacture being detected when the produced guns inevitably fall into the hands of police and other law enforcement.

Oh, and your Wikipedia link is mangled.  The correct one is

R9-Arms_submachine_gun

Just use the part of the URL after the /wiki/ in the full URL inside the wiki tags, and always preview every post.  It saves a lot of trouble.

Detection is likely, but finding and arresting them will be extremely difficult because 1) the machine and equipment from making guns have applications ranging from lawn mower parts to rocket engines, in short, the list is fucking huge 2) there are tons of machine shops and trying to monitor every single one of them would be a logistical nightmare 3) Some machine shop set ups are mobile (on top of huge diesel trucks) that is gonna add to difficulty, since it's a moving target 4) Even if governments order all computer aided machines to be installed with software to prevent gun parts from being made, there are always hackers and people to find ways around it. Not to mention that won't do jack shit against manually operated ones or ones that were built from stolen components.

I read that Croatia is the most likely suspect of it's origins, because it was know for cottage and clandestine weapons production during the the Yugoslav Wars, not unlike the weapons manufacturers in the Philippines and Pakistan.

A good example of this is the Agram 2000, another 9mm sub-machine gun that was produced clandestinely.

Agram_2000

I believe that, we are seeing the beginning of technology rendering gun control obsolete. Twenty or thirty years ago a lathe or a mill would have costed several hundred grand even more so if it was CNC. Nowadays a DIY CNC lathe/mill set up can be as low as five grand. The only really tricky parts of a firearm to build is the barrel, magazine and the ammo, but with 3-d printing (polymer and metal) that is getting better, faster and cheaper every year, I think it is only a matter of time before gun control is rendered completely unenforceable.

Skm1091

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2018, 01:17:35 AM »
Here is also a video that will interest you guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ayHfaHCXQ

evensgrey

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2018, 07:02:38 PM »
What I mean about replicating an existing manufacturer's general market design is that doing that means that it will be less likely that law enforcement will realize that a clandestine manufacturer even exists.  They won't look for something they never consider the existence of.

It is also the case that there are many more machinists who can replicate an existing design from an example than there are engineers who can design a new one or make major modifications to one.  This is just strange on a great many levels.

Skm1091

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2018, 11:09:05 PM »
What I mean about replicating an existing manufacturer's general market design is that doing that means that it will be less likely that law enforcement will realize that a clandestine manufacturer even exists.  They won't look for something they never consider the existence of.

It is also the case that there are many more machinists who can replicate an existing design from an example than there are engineers who can design a new one or make major modifications to one.  This is just strange on a great many levels.

I think this is to draw attention to their particular brand of weapons. In the legal market you have different brands of any product and some people develop loyalty to a particular brand if they find them dependable. That will make it more likely for repeat business. Also this gun doesn't look too difficult to manufacture in a decent machine shop. The internals are actually pretty simple compared to many other designs.

BTW this gun seems very similar to HK VP70 and the Beretta M93R doesn't it?

Heckler_&_Koch_VP70

Beretta_93R

evensgrey

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2018, 01:44:11 PM »
I think this is to draw attention to their particular brand of weapons. In the legal market you have different brands of any product and some people develop loyalty to a particular brand if they find them dependable. That will make it more likely for repeat business. Also this gun doesn't look too difficult to manufacture in a decent machine shop. The internals are actually pretty simple compared to many other designs.

BTW this gun seems very similar to HK VP70 and the Beretta M93R doesn't it?

Heckler_&_Koch_VP70

Beretta_93R

There are a limited number of good configurations for a pistol, and somewhat fewer for a fully automatic pistol due to the additional constraints that full auto fire imposes.  Any new design is probably going to look like something that already exists.

The (relatively) simple mechanism probably relates to the fact that the designer likely had less experience, training, and resources than a conventional gun maker would bring to bear on developing a new gun.  Simpler designs are also usually quicker and easier to make than more complex ones, and in this case it also lowers the cyclic rate, which probably improves the characteristics of the gun.  Full auto firing weapons are notorious for being hard to hit anything in particular with, to the extent that the US removed full auto fire from the M16 quite a while ago, replacing it with a burst mode that puts about as many rounds more or less on target per trigger press with much less waste.  Slowing the rate should make the recoil control easier and increase the duration of the burst.

I am a bit puzzled as to what these guns are actually being used for.  Full auto hand-held weapons are mostly only good for suppression fire, simply to keep the other side's head's down to you can do something more effective without them shooting back effectively.  Of course, the only specifics about who had one of these guns in the course of a crime was a drug smuggler, who might have had it for intimidation factor against a possibly unreliable contact on either end of the journey.  While other guns of this design are mentioned, no specifics about who had them and under what circumstances were given.  I suppose emptying the clip at would-be assailants would make them dive for cover and you could use the delay it would create to haul ass the hell away (another thing area suppression fire is good for:  covering retreat by impeding enemy movement).

Skm1091

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2018, 01:28:29 AM »
There are a limited number of good configurations for a pistol, and somewhat fewer for a fully automatic pistol due to the additional constraints that full auto fire imposes.  Any new design is probably going to look like something that already exists.

The (relatively) simple mechanism probably relates to the fact that the designer likely had less experience, training, and resources than a conventional gun maker would bring to bear on developing a new gun.  Simpler designs are also usually quicker and easier to make than more complex ones, and in this case it also lowers the cyclic rate, which probably improves the characteristics of the gun.  Full auto firing weapons are notorious for being hard to hit anything in particular with, to the extent that the US removed full auto fire from the M16 quite a while ago, replacing it with a burst mode that puts about as many rounds more or less on target per trigger press with much less waste.  Slowing the rate should make the recoil control easier and increase the duration of the burst.

I am a bit puzzled as to what these guns are actually being used for.  Full auto hand-held weapons are mostly only good for suppression fire, simply to keep the other side's head's down to you can do something more effective without them shooting back effectively.  Of course, the only specifics about who had one of these guns in the course of a crime was a drug smuggler, who might have had it for intimidation factor against a possibly unreliable contact on either end of the journey.  While other guns of this design are mentioned, no specifics about who had them and under what circumstances were given.  I suppose emptying the clip at would-be assailants would make them dive for cover and you could use the delay it would create to haul ass the hell away (another thing area suppression fire is good for:  covering retreat by impeding enemy movement).

Simpler designs also means less likely to break and easier maintenance and repair. This is crucial if a customer contacts the builders because it broke. They could send him new parts more easily. Interchangeability or parts might be a problem if they are hand built tho.

I think this particular design is meant to have a stock attached to the back (judging by the hole and the slightly recessed back end of the lower frame). There also appear to rails at the front end passed the trigger guard for adding optics and maybe a fore-grip. The barrel also takes a silencer, which means it could also take a muzzle break (that should help with the recoil a bit). Those could help in firing in full-auto or bursts. And it also has a semi-auto or single shot mode (there is the selector switch behind the grip). Also, full-auto probably won't be too inaccurate if you are up close and going after only one target in a confined space.

Seeing this makes you think of what the future might hold, doesn't it? With 3d printers now you could probably build hi-point like pistols. I always imagined that there would be huge trucks with cargo containers that housed machine shops, churning out gun parts. Not unlike mobile meth labs. Barrels are the toughest parts fabricate, but drilling and rifling a pistol length and caliber barrel shouldn't be too difficult. Also 3d printing in metal might change everything. In the future, say within 20 years, we could likely see people printing full-sized assault/battle rifles and maybe even grenade launchers.

Ibrahim90

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 05:36:20 PM »
And people say "Hurr-durr, why don't we Europeans have problems with guns?"

I get this so often on Quora through the feeds I feel like bashing my head in.

Anyway: heck, we don't even need expensive or posh mills. You remember the ones in Pakistan and India, right? their tools in total can't possibly exceed 1,000 dollars: nearly everything is done by hand, yet they, per man, turn out dozens of pistols, shotguns, and rifles every year--all destined for the black market.

I got my musket from an Indian source: via an American intermediary it was but a third to half the cost of what I would have paid via a Canadian or Italian producer. I'm frankly surprised the Europens took this long to figure this out...
"All you guys complaining about the possibility of guy on guy relationships...you're also denying us girl on girl.  Works both ways if you know what I mean"

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Skm1091

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Re: Mystery Machine Pistols (Likely a Black Market Design)
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 06:51:38 PM »
Quote
And people say "Hurr-durr, why don't we Europeans have problems with guns?"

If you compare the total number of mass shootings in the European Union (including the Euro zone) and the United States it's really not as bad as the media makes it out to be. The EU had around 24-25 (I think) while the US had around 32-33 ( I think). Considering the US has 2.17 more landmass the difference is not that huge.

The EU/USA comparison is also more accurate compared to one individual country in Europe because the EU structure is very similar to the US under the Articles of Confederation, with some aspects of pre-civil war constitutional era. All they really need is central army and they will look quiet similar to pre-civil war, constitutional era, USA.

So to all you arrogant and elitist snobs across the Atlantic. I have only one response for you


Quote
Anyway: heck, we don't even need expensive or posh mills. You remember the ones in Pakistan and India, right? their tools in total can't possibly exceed 1,000 dollars: nearly everything is done by hand, yet they, per man, turn out dozens of pistols, shotguns, and rifles every year--all destined for the black market.

CNC and better tech are merely luxuries. During alcohol prohibition there were illegal booze production. They ranged widely in terms of sophistication. Some were made in little more than bathtubs, while others were produced to high standards in hidden but very well equipped distilleries similar with meth today. And like I said some previous posts, metal 3d printing seems to advancing very quickly. It is only a matter of time. BTW Seeing how relatively sophisticated this piece is I am a little surprised that the underground builders didn't try to build something a little more potent like select-fire, short-barreled rifles.